Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine
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Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine
its very early, but some sad news in on another Malaysian jet down,
KYIV, Ukraine – A Ukrainian official said a Malaysian passenger plane carrying 295 people was shot down Thursday over a town in the east of the country.
Anton Gerashenko, an adviser to Ukraine’s Interior Minister, said on his Facebook page the plane was flying at an altitude of 10,000 metres (33,000 feet) when it was hit by a missile fired from a Buk launcher. A similar launcher was seen by Associated Press journalists near the eastern Ukrainian town of Snizhne earlier Thursday.
Malaysia Airlines said in a tweet it lost contact with Flight MH17 over Ukrainian airspace:
The Boeing plane was flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. Boeing tweeted they were aware of reports:
Business Insider quoted a military expert as telling Ukrainian journalist Myroslava the Malaysia Airlines plane crashed in the Donetsk region.
Flightradar24, a flight tracker that shows live air traffic from around the world, tweeted a map of where the plane was “just before it disappeared”:
KYIV, Ukraine – A Ukrainian official said a Malaysian passenger plane carrying 295 people was shot down Thursday over a town in the east of the country.
Anton Gerashenko, an adviser to Ukraine’s Interior Minister, said on his Facebook page the plane was flying at an altitude of 10,000 metres (33,000 feet) when it was hit by a missile fired from a Buk launcher. A similar launcher was seen by Associated Press journalists near the eastern Ukrainian town of Snizhne earlier Thursday.
Malaysia Airlines said in a tweet it lost contact with Flight MH17 over Ukrainian airspace:
The Boeing plane was flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. Boeing tweeted they were aware of reports:
Business Insider quoted a military expert as telling Ukrainian journalist Myroslava the Malaysia Airlines plane crashed in the Donetsk region.
Flightradar24, a flight tracker that shows live air traffic from around the world, tweeted a map of where the plane was “just before it disappeared”:
Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine
Absolutely speechless, so sad.
Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine
Let's hope & pray that it's NOT a Malaysian Airlines problem, and that it was beyond their control.
i.e. no prior warnings that this would occur if they continued flight on a certain locus, and ignored the warning.
i.e. no prior warnings that this would occur if they continued flight on a certain locus, and ignored the warning.
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Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine
If the reports are true, these are the kinds of things that make me want to quit life...
HMV
HMV
Courage is facing the challenge with a healthy fear, not being fearless - Les Stroud
Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine
Honestly, I'm hoping it was just that. If it was a shootdown, the consequences could be a lot worse than if it was a MH screwup.swordfish wrote:Let's hope & pray that it's NOT a Malaysian Airlines problem, and that it was beyond their control.
i.e. no prior warnings that this would occur if they continued flight on a certain locus, and ignored the warning.
I don't wish the crew or the company any ill, and I'm certainly not saying it was their fault, but if I had to choose between the fallout of a case of pilot error like Air France 447, or a shootdown like Iran Air 655 or Korean Air 007, I'd choose the former every time.
no sig because apparently quoting people in context is offensive to them.
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Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine
According to UK reports (and others), a NOTAM was issued early in the day about military activity in "that" airspace.
Do any of you know where/how to check the NOTAM, and the source of it?
Do any of you know where/how to check the NOTAM, and the source of it?
Buncha' blind, brainwashed, crybabies... 

Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine
https://www.notams.faa.gov/dinsQueryWeb ... mit=NOTAMsLearning2Fly wrote:According to UK reports (and others), a NOTAM was issued early in the day about military activity in "that" airspace.
Do any of you know where/how to check the NOTAM, and the source of it?
If that doesn't work, pull the notams for the ukfv/ukdv FIR. I didn't plot those areas, but I'm guessing one of them applies. There is a new notam now issued at 0030Z that prohibits US carriers from flying in ukfv and ukdv FIRs.
Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine
This is the NOTAM, I pulled it off https://pilotweb.nas.faa.gov/PilotWeb/
Apparently the A87 airway was in the flight's flight plan. But: 1. The flight never reached it; and 2. The last known altitude was FL330 - above the FL320 closure.
V6158/14 NOTAMN
Q) URRV/QARLC/IV/NBO/E/000/530/4818N04023E095
A) URRV B) 1407170000 C) 1408312359 EST
E) DUE TO COMBAT ACTIONS ON THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE NEAR THE
STATE BORDER WITH THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION AND THE FACTS OF FIRING
FROM THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE TOWARDS THE TERRITORY OF
RUSSIAN FEDERATION, TO ENSURE INTL FLT SAFETY, ATS RTE SEGMENTS
CLSD AS FLW:
A100 MIMRA - ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND) ,
B145 KANON - ASMIL,
G247 MIMRA - BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA),
A87 TAMAK - SARNA,
A102 PENEG - NALEM,
A225 GUKOL - ODETA,
A712 TAMAK - SAMBEK NDB (SB),
B493 FASAD - ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND),
B947 TAMAK - ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND),
G118 LATRI - BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA),
G534 MIMRA - TOROS,
G904 FASAD - SUTAG,
R114 BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA)-NALEM.
SFC - FL320
Apparently the A87 airway was in the flight's flight plan. But: 1. The flight never reached it; and 2. The last known altitude was FL330 - above the FL320 closure.
V6158/14 NOTAMN
Q) URRV/QARLC/IV/NBO/E/000/530/4818N04023E095
A) URRV B) 1407170000 C) 1408312359 EST
E) DUE TO COMBAT ACTIONS ON THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE NEAR THE
STATE BORDER WITH THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION AND THE FACTS OF FIRING
FROM THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE TOWARDS THE TERRITORY OF
RUSSIAN FEDERATION, TO ENSURE INTL FLT SAFETY, ATS RTE SEGMENTS
CLSD AS FLW:
A100 MIMRA - ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND) ,
B145 KANON - ASMIL,
G247 MIMRA - BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA),
A87 TAMAK - SARNA,
A102 PENEG - NALEM,
A225 GUKOL - ODETA,
A712 TAMAK - SAMBEK NDB (SB),
B493 FASAD - ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND),
B947 TAMAK - ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND),
G118 LATRI - BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA),
G534 MIMRA - TOROS,
G904 FASAD - SUTAG,
R114 BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA)-NALEM.
SFC - FL320
Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine
I've listened to enough Russian profanities and the recording played by the
Ukrainian Intelligence sounds and looks authentic.
Those voices appear to be Russian accents rather than Ukrainian which
sounds like a typical Moscow accent but, in some parts, its hard to tell
a Moscow accent from those who live in Eastern Ukraine as they inter-marry
and migrate in all directions.
It will interesting to see if there are further information as to the authenticity of the recordings.
The Moscow Times has gone into full blown diversionary mode and a very high level
of censorship that I've not seen for years.
The Moscow Times is usually one of the few sources of objective news and on this occasion
it looks like the press release was written for them and ordered to print it.
The language is very different from their regular writers.
Now watch the propaganda go nuts on RT, if you watch it.
I gave up watching RT years ago. It's generally pure propaganda.
And what are Russians being told.
Here is what "Pravda.RU" ( truth ) says
UPDATE: The eyewitnesses, who could see the crash of the airliner, say that it was a fighter jet of the Ukrainian Air Force that downed the plane. As a result of the attack, the aircraft split into two and crashed on the territory of the breakaway Donetsk region, the press service of the People's Republic of Luhansk said.
Ukrainian Intelligence sounds and looks authentic.
Those voices appear to be Russian accents rather than Ukrainian which
sounds like a typical Moscow accent but, in some parts, its hard to tell
a Moscow accent from those who live in Eastern Ukraine as they inter-marry
and migrate in all directions.
It will interesting to see if there are further information as to the authenticity of the recordings.
The Moscow Times has gone into full blown diversionary mode and a very high level
of censorship that I've not seen for years.
The Moscow Times is usually one of the few sources of objective news and on this occasion
it looks like the press release was written for them and ordered to print it.
The language is very different from their regular writers.
Now watch the propaganda go nuts on RT, if you watch it.
I gave up watching RT years ago. It's generally pure propaganda.
And what are Russians being told.
Here is what "Pravda.RU" ( truth ) says
UPDATE: The eyewitnesses, who could see the crash of the airliner, say that it was a fighter jet of the Ukrainian Air Force that downed the plane. As a result of the attack, the aircraft split into two and crashed on the territory of the breakaway Donetsk region, the press service of the People's Republic of Luhansk said.
Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine
Very tragic, but hardly surprising. Not very responsible of Malaysia Airlines to send a jet that close to NOTAMed airspace over that part of the world. Russian response is typical. My question is, was it done intentionally, or was it a mistake? Doesn't anybody learn history anymore?
Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine
Most probably a huge mistake. Interesting that TWA800 was also on July 17th...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA800
I really hope this accident does not lead to further bloodshed, and that all sides work out their differences. 100 years ago roughly...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassinat ... of_Austria
RIP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA800
I really hope this accident does not lead to further bloodshed, and that all sides work out their differences. 100 years ago roughly...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassinat ... of_Austria
RIP
Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine
They were 1000m above the NOTAMed airspace. Perhaps the question should be: why was there an upper limit to the NOTAM?Jerz wrote:Very tragic, but hardly surprising. Not very responsible of Malaysia Airlines to send a jet that close to NOTAMed airspace over that part of the world. Russian response is typical. My question is, was it done intentionally, or was it a mistake? Doesn't anybody learn history anymore?
Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine
They were 1000m above the NOTAMed airspace. Perhaps the question should be: why was there an upper limit to the NOTAM?[/quote]
no. fl320-fl330 is 1000 feet
no. fl320-fl330 is 1000 feet
Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine
Who's responsible here, that this NOTAM doesn't isolate the threat as planned ?
Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine
It was well known that pro Russian rebels had BUK anti aircraft systems, stolen from the Ukrainian military, in their hands. Even the older models are capable of reaching targets at over 70000ft. Not sure how the NOTAM altitude was chosen. Probably based on MANPADS threat.
Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine
I don't know what kind of MANPADS you're thinking of but 32 000' is a bit excessive for strictly MANPADS don't you think?
Going for the deck at corner
Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine
On the news last night some talking head said that Air Traffic Control advised against the route the 777 was taking, but obviously couldn't force them to chose another.
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Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine
I checked Flightradar24 as soon as the flight was shot down. Many other eastbound flights went through the same area around the same time MAS17 was shot down and others, probabably unaware of what had just occured, continued overflying the area several hours after the incident.
Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine
AuxBatOn.
IIRC the highest flying target lost to Russian MANPADS reported over Vietnam, was a slow flying Bronco at around 20000ft. That was 40 years ago. One could assume technology improved some since. The advertised effective ceiling of MANPANDS (around 15000ft IIRC) is against fast movers, not relatively slow airliner. You can trade effective range for altitude to some extend, against a slow target.
My point is that ICAO , or whoever published the NOTAM, disregarded available info about rebels having medium range system like BUK and are therefore partially responsible.
Agreed, but please read my post. I speculated that NOTAM "safe" altitude of FL320 was selected based on MANPADS effective ceiling + safety buffer.I don't know what kind of MANPADS you're thinking of but 32 000' is a bit excessive for strictly MANPADS don't you think?
IIRC the highest flying target lost to Russian MANPADS reported over Vietnam, was a slow flying Bronco at around 20000ft. That was 40 years ago. One could assume technology improved some since. The advertised effective ceiling of MANPANDS (around 15000ft IIRC) is against fast movers, not relatively slow airliner. You can trade effective range for altitude to some extend, against a slow target.
My point is that ICAO , or whoever published the NOTAM, disregarded available info about rebels having medium range system like BUK and are therefore partially responsible.
Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine
Long reach to put ICAO to blame.
Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine
Many willbe found to have partial responsibility, many will point fingers, many will use it as an excuse...
Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine
ICAO issued an advisory against overflying the conflict zone in Ukraine and so did Eurocontrol. Advisory is not a very strong language considering the commercial pressures / fuel savings.
Ukrainian authorities issued a NOTAM banning flights up to FL320.
Finally Malaysia Airlines elected to fly over a war zone with known AA capabilities on all sides of the conflict. Previously Ukrainian AN 26 cruising at 6500m was shot down. 6500m (over 21000ft) is above shoulder mounted missiles and ZSU23-4 effective altitude and is a good indication of rebel's capabilities. All of them will be held partially responsible for this tragedy. I doubt if the guys who pulled the trigger will ever be found or charged, especially if they came from Russia, as suggested by some news channels.
Ukrainian authorities issued a NOTAM banning flights up to FL320.
Finally Malaysia Airlines elected to fly over a war zone with known AA capabilities on all sides of the conflict. Previously Ukrainian AN 26 cruising at 6500m was shot down. 6500m (over 21000ft) is above shoulder mounted missiles and ZSU23-4 effective altitude and is a good indication of rebel's capabilities. All of them will be held partially responsible for this tragedy. I doubt if the guys who pulled the trigger will ever be found or charged, especially if they came from Russia, as suggested by some news channels.
Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine
Running that kind of business there, there's almost no way it could be that dumb that these operators shot that thing down without a clue of what they were doing. Two minutes on flight aware for ANYONE with web access would be in the know what civilian airliners are crossing up there ...Jerz wrote:All of them will be held partially responsible for this tragedy. I doubt if the guys who pulled the trigger will ever be found or charged, especially if they came from Russia, as suggested by some news channels.
The tragedies in process of unfolding in that region anyway are now immediately in our face, the death and aircraft carnage lying there available (exposed) to everyone with a screen who happens to be looking. It's also showing futility, as is/was the search for MH370; and understanding why is just as puzzling as why the fighting beneath the flight path is going on. IMO it's not automatically sure either that the event was unplanned (the early news bulletins made it sound 100% accidental).
Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine
This entire situation is tragic, however, it’s not unique by any means and like many aviation tragedies, it required a finite chain of events to occur.
Unfortunately, it’s all made worse by misinformation, exploitation, political motives and racism.
The US is taking the opportunity to trash Russia for it’s own political purposes even though they don’t have much of a stake in the situation. Senator John McCain is calling Putin a murderer. I guess his memory isn't so good. His own country shot down Iran Air flight 665 while supporting Iraq in the war against them, and while the airliner was squawking a civilian code in Iranian airspace. Did I mention that the ship that shot the missiles was in Iranian waters? Or that they said they mistook the Airbus A300 for an F14?
George Bush and Bill Clinton both refused to apologize or acknowledge responsibility although they managed to pay a lump sum to Iran with no strings attached. With that history, I don’t understand some of the statements coming out of US officials.
As far as flying over war zones is concerned, there certainly are some precautions recommended but do you think attacks on civil aircraft only happen over war zones? Ask Korean Airlines when they were shot down over Russia. The US wasn’t a war zone on 911 either. Eurocontrol deemed the airspace MH-17 occupied safe enough to traverse along with many other airliners.
Unfortunately, it’s all made worse by misinformation, exploitation, political motives and racism.
The US is taking the opportunity to trash Russia for it’s own political purposes even though they don’t have much of a stake in the situation. Senator John McCain is calling Putin a murderer. I guess his memory isn't so good. His own country shot down Iran Air flight 665 while supporting Iraq in the war against them, and while the airliner was squawking a civilian code in Iranian airspace. Did I mention that the ship that shot the missiles was in Iranian waters? Or that they said they mistook the Airbus A300 for an F14?
George Bush and Bill Clinton both refused to apologize or acknowledge responsibility although they managed to pay a lump sum to Iran with no strings attached. With that history, I don’t understand some of the statements coming out of US officials.
As far as flying over war zones is concerned, there certainly are some precautions recommended but do you think attacks on civil aircraft only happen over war zones? Ask Korean Airlines when they were shot down over Russia. The US wasn’t a war zone on 911 either. Eurocontrol deemed the airspace MH-17 occupied safe enough to traverse along with many other airliners.