Low Timers???
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Low Timers???
I read in Aviation International News about how Crossair pranged an RJ100 (modernized Fisher Price jet) on approach to Zurich. Looks like a typical CFIT accident except that the PIC(57 years and 19,555hrs TT) had a history of marginal performance but what suprised me was the co-pilot (25 years) only had 490 hrs TT and had logged 348 hrs in the Fisher Price jet. I wonder if that is a typo or does Crossair really and truley rob the cradle. How could a pilot with so little experience end up in the right seat of a regional jet?. In the same mag, US operators are being dinged in the UK because the second in command on a two pilot airplane does not have a type rating. The FAA says he/she doesn't require one.
The average pilot, despite the somewhat swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy and caring.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
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I know of 250 hour guys that have ended up in a 737 in Europe...go figure. The environment over there is very different. Basically for a first job you can expect a small jet position (like citation, lear) and if you have some good connections, it is possible to be in a transport category jet. You probably know that the JAA atpl course includes about 30 hours in a transport category simulator (like a 737), and you can write the exams with only 200 hours.
I know it sounds insane having such low-timers in the right seat, but you have to understand that aviation in Europe is very different to avaition in Canada.
The bottom-line is that European aviation does not have the 'stepping-stones' like we do in Canada.
There are very few private flight schools, and thus very few instructor jobs. There is essentially no 'up-North', so there are virtually no ramp jobs, float jobs, piston jobs, Caravan jobs, etc. And there are very few '703'-type independant commercial operators, so very few King Airs, Metros, etc. (all relative to Canada fo course!)
So if you are a teenager and you want to be a pilot in Europe here are your three options are:
1. Your local Air Force. (remember Swissair Flight-111? Both pilots were ex-Swiss Air Force!). They worked their way up through the Air Force and then moved accross the field to Swissair.
2. Apply for an airlines Flight Academy(Most European airlines like Lufthansa have them). If you are accepted, you start with zero-hours and they train you from a 172 all the way up to an Airbus A-340! (but know that most applicants don't get in, and of those who do get in the majority get weeded-out before they ever see a Dash-8 or an RJ!)
3. Go to Canada or the U.S. and spend $35,000 for your Commercial/Multi/IFR, and then return to Europe and spend an additional $100,000 converting your licences...with no guarentee of a job!
The grass always seems greener!!!!!!!!
G
The bottom-line is that European aviation does not have the 'stepping-stones' like we do in Canada.
There are very few private flight schools, and thus very few instructor jobs. There is essentially no 'up-North', so there are virtually no ramp jobs, float jobs, piston jobs, Caravan jobs, etc. And there are very few '703'-type independant commercial operators, so very few King Airs, Metros, etc. (all relative to Canada fo course!)
So if you are a teenager and you want to be a pilot in Europe here are your three options are:
1. Your local Air Force. (remember Swissair Flight-111? Both pilots were ex-Swiss Air Force!). They worked their way up through the Air Force and then moved accross the field to Swissair.
2. Apply for an airlines Flight Academy(Most European airlines like Lufthansa have them). If you are accepted, you start with zero-hours and they train you from a 172 all the way up to an Airbus A-340! (but know that most applicants don't get in, and of those who do get in the majority get weeded-out before they ever see a Dash-8 or an RJ!)
3. Go to Canada or the U.S. and spend $35,000 for your Commercial/Multi/IFR, and then return to Europe and spend an additional $100,000 converting your licences...with no guarentee of a job!
The grass always seems greener!!!!!!!!
G
Now that you mention it, Luftansa and other major European airlines have flight training academies in Arizona. Fly Bonanza's Cheyennes, King Airs and all sorts of stuff that we do not think of as trainers. My former CP was also ex RCAF/CAF and he said the AIr Force had guys with less than 1000 hrs in command of 4 engine airplanes on transoceanic missions. How much TT do the CAF Hornet driver have. I beleive not very much, but it is mostly all training.
The average pilot, despite the somewhat swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy and caring.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
[quote="ahramin"]The selection process for airlines in europe is quite different. I know a guy in germany who started on the 737 with 220 hours. Many airlines hire people with zero flight experience and train them from scratch.[/quote]
I know guys who got hired with AC with 220Hrs. What's your point?
I know guys who got hired with AC with 220Hrs. What's your point?
Just to show what quotes are supposed to look like:
My point is that the hiring process is different there. As discussed. In Canada you need 1500 hours for an ATPL, and you need an ATPL to fly a 737. What equipment did your guys get hired on? How long ago did they get hired. We are not talking about thirty years ago when Cat Driver was still only a few years from retirement age. We are talking about now. Wakarimasu ka?K wrote:I know guys who got hired with AC with 220Hrs. What's your point?
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There was a thread on pprune a while back. Appearantly several EU airlines want a new flight training sylabus; 40 hours in a light SE trainer then 240 hrs in a transport catagory sim = frozen ATPL and immediate employeability on a jet transport
. Seems they consider the present light aircraft based system where students actually get flight experience" not relavant " to the skills required of a airline pilot 


Europeans don't think much of North Americans, in general. They're jealous of North America's economic and military successes.
What do you think the whole multi-national European taxpayer-funded Airbus program is? To stick the Americans one in the eye.
If the Europeans want to be proud of their excessive government regulations, ok fine - that's a pretty pitiful thing to be proud of. Is that the best they can do?
I'd love to see some of those arrogant wine-and-cheese European pansies try to keep up with us over here, doing some real flying in some real airplanes into some interesting places.
What do you think the whole multi-national European taxpayer-funded Airbus program is? To stick the Americans one in the eye.
If the Europeans want to be proud of their excessive government regulations, ok fine - that's a pretty pitiful thing to be proud of. Is that the best they can do?
I'd love to see some of those arrogant wine-and-cheese European pansies try to keep up with us over here, doing some real flying in some real airplanes into some interesting places.
Come on ndb, I sure wouldnt sling shit at the pilots - you'd be hapier than hell to be right seat on a '37 over there. Besides, just like us poor saps they are just living within the system they have in place. Good for the 200hr wet behind the ear types who get kick ass jobs (I know one just got on as F/O A320 with 200hrs) - we should all be so lucky.
Im pretty sure some guy flying an RJ over there can fly it here too. They get Wx just as shitty as here.
Im pretty sure some guy flying an RJ over there can fly it here too. They get Wx just as shitty as here.
Keep flying till the noise stops.
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Now you'd think that catching the CP f'ing a pig would be an advantage to ya, but not always.. least not in my case... so ok.. I caught the CP messing with the pork, it was bad for me in many ways...oldtimer Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 2:36 pm Post subject:
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Either that or the co-pilot caught the CP f*c*king a pig.
1) I had seen this
2) It was my pig I had raised to feed myself over the long winter, so..
3) I had to give the meat away for FREE to the neighbours, no damn way I'm eating that!!!
4) I had left the lens cap on the camera, so..
5) It was my word against his, so of course everyone would believe him, not me
6) because I interruppted his "moment" I was busted back down to ramp, with loss of senority and a pay cut!
7) I no longer dare to raise any animals of any kind to advoid a repeat, as the CP has been asking too many questions regarding sheep....
So ya see it not always as good as what you may think...

Jet dog
don't you just hate it when they squeal like that and then they step on the toes of your boots and all and with their pointy little hooves.
Now for the sheep!! All you need are velcro gloves and !!!! well, I digress.
don't you just hate it when they squeal like that and then they step on the toes of your boots and all and with their pointy little hooves.
Now for the sheep!! All you need are velcro gloves and !!!! well, I digress.
The average pilot, despite the somewhat swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy and caring.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.