AC Hiring

[Curiousflyer]

Reserved numbers/flow are not to attract pilots to Jazz.

It is to protect the operational integrity of the Express operation (and feed).

It won’t be ACPA bargaining capital being spent. It will be AC bargaining capital being spent.

This is quite the reverse psychology.

Reserved numbers and flow are only to attract and retain pilots at lower pay rates.

There are thousands of qualified pilots, ex-pats, corporate, etc that would be more than willing to go fly an RJ around. The problem is pay and working conditions, the supply is there, AC just doesn’t want to pay for it. Rather than paying for it, reserved numbers allows AC to retain a cheap 705 captain for a couple more years. Is that protecting the operation? Sure is, at the cheapest rate possible.

If the pilot group in Canada wants progress, there is only one way for us to do it. Pay.

Who said pay didn’t have to change?

It isn’t either/or. It is both. And there are two distinct deficiencies at Jazz affecting the ability to attract and retain qualified pilots. Pay and flow.

Pay needs to rise to a level that is competitive with other 705 employment options. And flow needs to be modified such that going to Jazz does not become a de facto impediment to being hired at AC, nor an impediment to staffing the Express schedule.

I disagree, pay is the only deficiency at the moment and the main benefactor of flow or reserved seniority numbers is Air Canada. Along with the tiny minority of pilots who actually get to flow as per the agreement at the seniority they were expecting. Air Canada has continuously thrown Jazz PMLs through the shredder for the last 20 years, they do what they want when they want because there are zero repercussions if they don’t.

The absolute best way forward for Jazz pilots is to focus solely on compensation. Air Canada will only flow Jazz pilots when THEY want to, it’s been this way forever and will continue to be this way.

[CaptDukeNukem]

This is quite the reverse psychology.

Reserved numbers and flow are only to attract and retain pilots at lower pay rates.

There are thousands of qualified pilots, ex-pats, corporate, etc that would be more than willing to go fly an RJ around. The problem is pay and working conditions, the supply is there, AC just doesn’t want to pay for it. Rather than paying for it, reserved numbers allows AC to retain a cheap 705 captain for a couple more years. Is that protecting the operation? Sure is, at the cheapest rate possible.

If the pilot group in Canada wants progress, there is only one way for us to do it. Pay.

Who said pay didn’t have to change?

It isn’t either/or. It is both. And there are two distinct deficiencies at Jazz affecting the ability to attract and retain qualified pilots. Pay and flow.

Pay needs to rise to a level that is competitive with other 705 employment options. And flow needs to be modified such that going to Jazz does not become a de facto impediment to being hired at AC, nor an impediment to staffing the Express schedule.

I disagree, pay is the only deficiency at the moment and the main benefactor of flow or reserved seniority numbers is Air Canada. Along with the tiny minority of pilots who actually get to flow as per the agreement at the seniority they were expecting. Air Canada has continuously thrown Jazz PMLs through the shredder for the last 20 years, they do what they want when they want because there are zero repercussions if they don’t.

The absolute best way forward for Jazz pilots is to focus solely on compensation. Air Canada will only flow Jazz pilots when THEY want to, it’s been this way forever and will continue to be this way.

I’m sorry… if you think pay is the only deficiency at jazz then you suffer from tunnel vision. I believe they also call it “grey out”. Go rent a citabria and pull 6-7 Gs. You’ll know what I’m talking about.

Pay is abysmal yes, and is the primary concern that needs to be addressed.

Then jazz needs to tackle the insane deductions of a health plan they pump “as the best” but in groundschool tell you not to use in order to lower costs. (True story). LTD and STD benefits to start.

You’ll love 55% deductions of your already small paycheque.

I rank the third issue as flow.
Clear contract violation, but I’m doubtful anything will be resolved…. At least in the next few years. Arbitrations take years. The best they can do is leverage this for some contract upgrades… and even that won’t come without its challenges.

4th issue is morale, for god sakes… can someone at jazz do something to make someone smile for once? Throw a party, order a pizza. Jesus

[CaptDukeNukem]

Also, to prevent thread drift here (not that it’s already happening), before any of youse decides to fix my post by saying a citabria is good only for 5 Gs, yea I know.

[Nick678]

How quickly flow gets discredited in our contract, it has the same weight as anything else in the contract. The violation needs to be rectified by the parties named.

Jazz pilots worked for those seniority numbers and deserve them.

[canadian_aviator_4]

You know morale is low when the first thing you talk about with any jazz pilot is: So when are you leaving?

[flyinhigh]

Jazz pilots worked for those seniority numbers and deserve them.

You have a seniority number, at your current company called JAZZ.

Any pilot accepting a job at one company, expecting a # at another is delusional. Just as when ACPA turned down the MOA. I heard more complaining by Jazz pilots than the AC pilots.

[rudder]

You know morale is low when the first thing you talk about with any jazz pilot is: So when are you leaving?

That is the sad but brutal truth of Jazz circa 2023.

[YYZshill]

Jazz pilots worked for those seniority numbers and deserve them.

you are not owed anything. the sense of entitlement from the jazz boys is insane. I've met many candidates with the same mentality.

[PostmasterGeneral]

How quickly flow gets discredited in our contract, it has the same weight as anything else in the contract. The violation needs to be rectified by the parties named.

Jazz pilots worked for those seniority numbers and deserve them.

No matter what you think you "deserve," you won't be getting a seniority number at AC.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Jazz pilots worked for those seniority numbers and deserve them.

you are not owed anything. the sense of entitlement from the jazz boys is insane. I've met many candidates with the same mentality.

Luckily the AC hiring department has been weeding most of them out lately, since they have a surplus of applicants from OTS. Then Jazz guys wonder why their PFO rate is so high.

[canadian_aviator_4]

Jazz pilots worked for those seniority numbers and deserve them.

you are not owed anything. the sense of entitlement from the jazz boys is insane. I've met many candidates with the same mentality.

Luckily the AC hiring department has been weeding most of them out lately, since they have a surplus of applicants from OTS. Then Jazz guys wonder why their PFO rate is so high.

Do you have an official report to indicate a high pfo rate?

[daedalusx]

PFO rate can't be that high if they hired that scumbag youtuber spammer.

[PostmasterGeneral]

you are not owed anything. the sense of entitlement from the jazz boys is insane. I've met many candidates with the same mentality.

Luckily the AC hiring department has been weeding most of them out lately, since they have a surplus of applicants from OTS. Then Jazz guys wonder why their PFO rate is so high.

Do you have an official report to indicate a high pfo rate?

Uh, what?

[cdnavater]

Luckily the AC hiring department has been weeding most of them out lately, since they have a surplus of applicants from OTS. Then Jazz guys wonder why their PFO rate is so high.

Do you have an official report to indicate a high pfo rate?

Uh, what?

Yes, I agree, how do you know the PFO rate is high?
Are you conflating PFO rate with flow rate?

Edited to add, there is a definite sense of entitlement with the younger generation, I’ve seen pissed off FOs because they couldn’t get PICUS. I’m mean show up at an airline with enough PIC to get your ATPL for Christ sake, even if you’re light on total time, at least have the PIC.
I don’t feel that a pilot not on property is entitled to a number on a separate list, they ones held back are certainly entitled to some type of compensation, which is yet to be determined.

[canadian_aviator_4]

Luckily the AC hiring department has been weeding most of them out lately, since they have a surplus of applicants from OTS. Then Jazz guys wonder why their PFO rate is so high.

Do you have an official report to indicate a high pfo rate?

Uh, what?

What is your source of information to backup a high pfo rate? As cdnavater indicated you may be confusing pfo with flow.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Luckily the AC hiring department has been weeding most of them out lately, since they have a surplus of applicants from OTS. Then Jazz guys wonder why their PFO rate is so high.

Do you have an official report to indicate a high pfo rate?

Uh, what?

I’m also curious as to the Pfo rate. I thought part of the PML was a limited number of PFOs. But alas, they’ve broken that before, so I legitimately am curious.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Do you have an official report to indicate a high pfo rate?

Uh, what?

What is your source of information to backup a high pfo rate? As cdnavater indicated you may be confusing pfo with flow.

No, I’m referring to the ratio of Jazz candidates who interview, to those actually hired.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Uh, what?

What is your source of information to backup a high pfo rate? As cdnavater indicated you may be confusing pfo with flow.

No, I’m referring to the ratio of Jazz candidates who interview, to those actually hired.

Ahh yes. I get what you’re saying. Got tons of friends at jazz who are just waiting in purgatory. That dead zone between a pfo and a Gs date with no information for the better part of 5 months now.

[canadian_aviator_4]

What is your source of information to backup a high pfo rate? As cdnavater indicated you may be confusing pfo with flow.

No, I’m referring to the ratio of Jazz candidates who interview, to those actually hired.

Ahh yes. I get what you’re saying. Got tons of friends at jazz who are just waiting in purgatory. That dead zone between a pfo and a Gs date with no information for the better part of 5 months now.

Yes. They interviewed many pilots at the start of the year, then reduced by %50 their hiring rate. Plus reopened hiring in January. So you have a lot of guys waiting due to reduced rate plus higher seniority pilots slotted in ahead of them that applied in January. Reopening in April of hiring, plus summer will increase the backlog.

However, there is a rumour that ac will have all jazz pilots that interviewed and make the cut (no pfo) in a gs by sep/oct. No source to back this up. Just rumours.

[Outlaw58]

Jazz pilots worked for those seniority numbers and deserve them.

You have a seniority number, at your current company called JAZZ.

Any pilot accepting a job at one company, expecting a # at another is delusional. Just as when ACPA turned down the MOA. I heard more complaining by Jazz pilots than the AC pilots.

This is what is wrong and has been wrong with our industry for decades.

The current seniority system made a lot of sense when entering a 705 operation with less than 5000 hours and without a well padded resume was unthinkable. Today, it makes no sense whatsoever, and hasn't for a long while.

Until we get over that paradigm shift, forget about pilot unity.

you are not owed anything. the sense of entitlement from the jazz boys is insane. I've met many candidates with the same mentality.

How about those ex-military with 25-30 years of service looking for a civilian 2nd career? How dare those entitled arses??

Damn right I'm delusional, and proudly so.

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[rudder]

Jazz pilots worked for those seniority numbers and deserve them.

you are not owed anything. the sense of entitlement from the jazz boys is insane. I've met many candidates with the same mentality.

What the Jazz pilots are ‘owed’ is contract compliance. No different for the AC pilots.

So, the Jazz pilots are entitled (without any consent or concurrence required from ACPA) to 60% of the AC PIT spots (measured on an annual basis with a maximum 10% rejection rate for qualified applicants). Jazz did not agree to this provision without AC concurrence.

Why this did not happen in 2022 and is not likely to happen in 2023 will be a subject of the discovery phase of the ALPA grievance on the flow provisions of the Jazz Pilot CBA. There will be witnesses from Jazz. There will probably be witnesses from AC (subject to obligation).

First determination will be compliance or non-compliance. If non-compliance, second determination will be - why (intentional/unintentional)? Third determination will be remedy and/or damages. This will not include any AC seniority numbers.

What invariably will come out is that the 60% isn’t working. Jazz was supposed to be able to manage the anticipated flow attrition. They have in the past been able to replace up to 500 pilots annually. However, with marginal WAWCON (lowest starting pay rates in the industry) and many more non-AC attrition destinations, Jazz finds itself unable to hire and train nearly enough pilots to sustain a stable total pilot population. And, record AC hiring rates mean the stay at Jazz for a qualified flow pilot could eventually be measured in just weeks.

So the obvious answer is to replace this arrangement with something that is transparent, predictable, sustainable, and enforceable. That will likely require four party consent. And that has not happened yet.

So, violation. Grievance. Discovery. Decision.

As is so often the case, doing nothing is not the appropriate response. The impact of the scenario described above is unfolding every day at Jazz.

[Crewbunk]

Extremely well stated.

It appears the problem is ….

What invariably will come out is that the 60% isn’t working. Jazz was supposed to be able to manage the anticipated flow attrition. They have in the past been able to replace up to 500 pilots annually. However, with marginal WAWCON (lowest starting pay rates in the industry) and many more non-AC attrition destinations, Jazz finds itself unable to hire and train nearly enough pilots to sustain a stable total pilot population. And, record AC hiring rates mean the stay at Jazz for a qualified flow pilot could eventually be measured in just weeks.

So the obvious answer is to replace this arrangement with something that is transparent, predictable, sustainable, and enforceable. That will likely require four party consent. And that has not happened yet.

I’m surprised that when the 60% rule was penned, there wasn’t a maximum number. Namely, what happens during a massive Air Canada hiring spree, like we are presently seeing? It looks like not that AC doesn’t want 60%, but that Jazz can’t handle it.

And …. if Jazz can’t adjust to the loss of 60% of AC’s massive numbers, then it’s simply not going to happen. But to cling to a clause that was devised before the thought of AC hiring 800 pilots a year is unreasonable.

Adjust it to something workable, perhaps even receive compensation, then move on.

[rudder]

Extremely well stated.

It appears the problem is ….

What invariably will come out is that the 60% isn’t working. Jazz was supposed to be able to manage the anticipated flow attrition. They have in the past been able to replace up to 500 pilots annually. However, with marginal WAWCON (lowest starting pay rates in the industry) and many more non-AC attrition destinations, Jazz finds itself unable to hire and train nearly enough pilots to sustain a stable total pilot population. And, record AC hiring rates mean the stay at Jazz for a qualified flow pilot could eventually be measured in just weeks.

So the obvious answer is to replace this arrangement with something that is transparent, predictable, sustainable, and enforceable. That will likely require four party consent. And that has not happened yet.

I’m surprised that when the 60% rule was penned, there wasn’t a maximum number. Namely, what happens during a massive Air Canada hiring spree, like we are presently seeing? It looks like not that AC doesn’t want 60%, but that Jazz can’t handle it.

And …. if Jazz can’t adjust to the loss of 60% of AC’s massive numbers, then it’s simply not going to happen. But to cling to a clause that was devised before the thought of AC hiring 800 pilots a year is unreasonable.

Adjust it to something workable, perhaps even receive compensation, then move on.

AC is not hiring 800 pilots per year. Highest year in history was sub-600. Even 2023 will come in below 600. The AC training pipeline can only handle so many.

So Jazz would be looking at 300-360 flow pilots per year until AC gets to its goal of 6000 pilots. 300-360 would normally be manageable except many Jazz pilots have either lost faith in AC flow or in Jazz and are moving on to non-AC carriers. In most if not all cases, significant pay raises are part of the attraction.

Many new-hire Jazz pilots are not upgradeable (direct entry from college programs). Therefore, CA attrition from Jazz becomes an even more challenging problem. And training pilot attrition is also creating backlogs in the training pipeline.

Parties should have known that what was agreed to was a recipe for failure. What is happening now is a simple manifestation of the inevitable outcome of assuming low pay/AC flow was going to withstand pilot supply chain issues.

So with the problem staring the parties square in the face, decisions need to be made.

[Crewbunk]

AC is not hiring 800 pilots per year. Highest year in history was sub-600. Even 2023 will come in below 600. The AC training pipeline can only handle so many.

So Jazz would be looking at 300-360 flow pilots per year until AC gets to its goal of 6000 pilots. 300-360 would normally be manageable except many Jazz pilots have either lost faith in AC flow or in Jazz and are moving on to non-AC carriers. In most if not all cases, significant pay raises are part of the attraction.

Many new-hire Jazz pilots are not upgradeable (direct entry from college programs). Therefore, CA attrition from Jazz becomes an even more challenging problem. And training pilot attrition is also creating backlogs in the training pipeline.

Parties should have known that what was agreed to was a recipe for failure. What is happening now is a simple manifestation of the inevitable outcome of assuming low pay/AC flow was going to withstand pilot supply chain issues.

So with the problem staring the parties square in the face, decisions need to be made.

Oh I agree with everything you say. The 800 pilots a year at AC has been batted around and being in the training department, I agree it is a lofty goal hard to achieve. But …. we have had a few 70+ pilot months lately. It will slow down across the summer.

The point I was making though, is that from what I see, AC would love 60% Jazz pilots, but Jazz can’t release them. By the time I see them, that is in the airplane, the exJazz pilots are very focused, disciplined and a pleasure to fly with. I have never seen this so called “entitlement” mentioned here.

But adding to this scenario, is this perfect storm in which we find ourselves. Not only the extreme numbers, but also the options of something better appearing while they are waiting. Never in my 35+ years of airline flying have I ever seen so many options for pilots.

The solution? You’re bang on. Either increase pay and improve working conditions or accept things the way they are. I’m pretty sure both Jazz and Air Canada (as the solution rests with both) have already decided what to do.

I’m in the minority, but I’ve always thought pre-reserved seniority places on the AC list is an elegant solution. Used in the past by both AC/Jazz and Canadian Airlines/CRA, it solved the “urgency” some felt. But … as I said, knowing that this method has caused huge issues, I well understand why I’m in the minority thinking it a viable solution.

[Outlaw58]

I’m in the minority, but I’ve always thought pre-reserved seniority places on the AC list is an elegant solution. Used in the past by both AC/Jazz and Canadian Airlines/CRA, it solved the “urgency” some felt. But … as I said, knowing that this method has caused huge issues, I well understand why I’m in the minority thinking it a viable solution.

Since it doesn't affect anyone already on the AC list and would only better someone on the Jazz list, it would stand to reason that the only "strong" opposition to such an agreement would come from folks on the sideline, hoping for an OTS spot at AC.

I can understand the AC folks seeing this as a "let" that should be compensated for and I think that's fair. Get that compensation and move on... Shouldn't be harder than it needs to be.

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