Is the ACPA Motto: "We will get'em next time" gone?

[rudder]

I had an opportunity to read the documents, in particular the MOA.

My surprise is not that the AC MEC agreed to this, but that AC did. The meeting schedule is extremely aggressive. AC will have several high level managers with a de facto full time commitment to the process for months (face-to-face is just a fraction of the time necessary to conduct bargaining).

Perhaps this is the price to be paid for the lack of progress to date.

I’ll bet Kaplan will crack the whip when he gets his weekly updates if sections are not being closed.

Now the real work begins. Developing proposals is easy. It happens in a bubble. Bargaining is the hard part. Choices have to be made and there is a price to be paid for saying ‘no’.

I am assuming that the ALPA IRD and EF&A departments will be present and fully engaged. That is part of what the 1.85% pays for.

Good luck.

[GeoffPilot]

I had an opportunity to read the documents, in particular the MOA.

My surprise is not that the AC MEC agreed to this, but that AC did. The meeting schedule is extremely aggressive. AC will have several high level managers with a de facto full time commitment to the process for months (face-to-face is just a fraction of the time necessary to conduct bargaining).

Perhaps this is the price to be paid for the lack of progress to date.

I’ll bet Kaplan will crack the whip when he gets his weekly updates if sections are not being closed.

Now the real work begins. Developing proposals is easy. It happens in a bubble. Bargaining is the hard part. Choices have to be made and there is a price to be paid for saying ‘no’.

I am assuming that the ALPA IRD and EF&A departments will be present and fully engaged. That is part of what the 1.85% pays for.

Good luck.

Perhaps we finally have a pilot union in this country playing chess instead of checkers

And a company negotiating team unable to hide the disarray of the leadership at this airline. The old ACPA mantra of "the company is always 2 steps ahead so resistance is futile" might finally be put to rest

[Fanblade]

I had an opportunity to read the documents, in particular the MOA.

My surprise is not that the AC MEC agreed to this, but that AC did. The meeting schedule is extremely aggressive. AC will have several high level managers with a de facto full time commitment to the process for months (face-to-face is just a fraction of the time necessary to conduct bargaining).

My thoughts exactly. I fully expected AC to declare impasse and start the clock ticking toward an April lockout.

Up until this moment AC management has been acting as they always do. Create a burning platform. Do not negotiate. Drag your feet. Wait for the cheapest time for a strike/lockout. Declare impasse to target that date. Compress the timeline so stuff falls off the table. Lockout. Platform on fire.

The company was doing all these things as expected………………and suddenly they stopped. Deviating from their very predictable pattern of behaviour.

They voluntarily placed themselves on their own burning platform if they fail to negotiate leading into summer. If they don’t negotiate? They get a summer strike/lockout timeline. That is a lot of leverage to hand over. They simply have to negotiate now or blow up the process quickly if they get cold feet.

I suspect what they maybe thinking is that there is so much work to do between now and Jun1 that they wont have to deal with the big ticket items. The current outstanding 32 articles with 1200 lines to be addressed will get brought down to sub 10 articles.

Then the impasse and count down to strike is reignited into fall.

If this is their strategy. Getting as much as possible cleaned up first is beneficial for us.

If that isn’t their strategy and they actually want to use this time to get a deal? Even better.

[itsgrosswhatinet]

[We could have 3 months of "meaningful bargaining" under the watch of a mediator, then pull the 90-day strike trigger on May 1st for a summer strike if we don't have an agreement by then.

Should we tell him

[Daniel Cooper]

[We could have 3 months of "meaningful bargaining" under the watch of a mediator, then pull the 90-day strike trigger on May 1st for a summer strike if we don't have an agreement by then.

Should we tell him

Maybe he means summer 2025. That is my new target for a strike now. Though I'm sure the company will lock us out in September 2024 as it is optimal time for them.

[itsgrosswhatinet]

I'm a pilot and I want to charge more for my services. The problem is if I do some other pilot that charges less might get the work.
How do I fight those other pilots that charge less.

[RippleRock]

[We could have 3 months of "meaningful bargaining" under the watch of a mediator, then pull the 90-day strike trigger on May 1st for a summer strike if we don't have an agreement by then.

Should we tell him

Maybe he means summer 2025. That is my new target for a strike now. Though I'm sure the company will lock us out in September 2024 as it is optimal time for them.

No matter when the strike occurs, the main focus right now is that "meaningful negotiations" will occur over the next 3-4 months. That's hugely important. The strike timeline is secondary.

The contract language as it stands, has massive loopholes that you could drive a truck through. There are loads of "shalls", loads of "best effort", loads of "best economic principals". Sloppy language open to interpretation "not in our favor"....and the Company has a "fly it now grieve it later" approach. This contract is an abomination that needs serious housecleaning. That WILL happen now. If we went "straight to strike", the sloppy contract language WOULD NOT be addressed to the degree necessary. The nice thing is this Mediator has a no-nonsense approach. If he sees that either we, or the Company isn't negotiating in earnest, he will declare an impass...DONE. 85 days later we strike.

Exactly when that strike occurs is secondary. Instead of one day, we stay out for two, instead of one week we are out for two weeks. No matter, similar result. Our union has been following this timeline "textbook". All of this isn't happening "haphazardly". We needed to table ALL the proposed contract changes, not just "some". That took time. Once presented, the Union needed to see how the Company was responding. Once they had proof the were "dragging their feet", they tabled this proposal. They are 100% aware of the timeline.

It's my opinion that we either have a contract on the table by May 31st, or we have one by September 29th. This MEC isn't putting up with BS as the latest message from Charlene clearly shows. She outlines that we never recovered from CCAA, from 2009, and were destroyed in 2012 with FOS. The Company pocketed millions at our direct expense.

After showing in excess of a billion dollars profit last quarter, and MR taking a 233% raise, it's payback time.

Patience is essential, as is following the directions of the MEC to the letter. There is no doubt the objective is a WCC and nothing less.

HOLD THE LINE

[Dias]

I'm a pilot and I want to charge more for my services. The problem is if I do some other pilot that charges less might get the work.
How do I fight those other pilots that charge less.

Have you tried lanyard posting?

[Nick678]

I'm a pilot and I want to charge more for my services. The problem is if I do some other pilot that charges less might get the work.
How do I fight those other pilots that charge less.

Have you tried lanyard posting?

Well it would be advantageous to get all the pilots together and set a standard for what wages should be.

[RippleRock]

I had an opportunity to read the documents, in particular the MOA.

My surprise is not that the AC MEC agreed to this, but that AC did. The meeting schedule is extremely aggressive. AC will have several high level managers with a de facto full time commitment to the process for months (face-to-face is just a fraction of the time necessary to conduct bargaining).

If that isn’t their strategy and they actually want to use this time to get a deal? Even better.

As outrageous as this sounds, it might not be wrong.

I'm sure the shareholders of the Company see the writing on the wall. They would be negligent if they were not aware of industry trends.

It's all around them. Huge pilot contracts south of the border, the fact we do similar flying, a strong Union with a no BS leader. We also have the tools and backing to do a proper forensic audit of the Company books under the direct guidance of ALPA. They are a known "successful negotiating entity" over the last 10 years anyway....I'm talking Legacy Airline terms.

I'm sure the Board of Directors knows exactly how much of a discount we are currently working under. Perhaps, just perhaps, they are about to acknowledge and address the disparity to avoid a shitstorm. The "change of direction" on the Company's behalf with regard to accepting ALPA's bargaining proposal seems ----seems--- to indicate this.

It's more important than ever to put those damn red lanyards on. Everyone is watching.

[itsgrosswhatinet]

I'm a pilot and I want to charge more for my services. The problem is if I do some other pilot that charges less might get the work.
How do I fight those other pilots that charge less.

Well it would be advantageous to get all the pilots together and set a standard for what wages should be.

But can't the person that pays for our services just say no to all of us at once then? What do we do then?

[sportingrifle]

Serious question.
So the BOD told management that the priority was to “ protect the summer.” Makes sense.
So my question is, would it be possible for us to go on strike in June when we have the most financial leverage? My read of this mediation is the earliest we could strike is Aug. Is this the case? Did we just deliver to the company the most important thing they needed? Please somebody point out how this is not the case.

[TFTMB heavy]

I think that ALPA got what they needed the most in this MOA, the company at the table and someone to hold them accountable. Regardless of when ALPA declares their intention to strike it will be detrimental to the company, assuming it comes to this. Sure some periods of the year are worst for AC but a strike threat during the labour day long weekend is pretty big.

[MontrealCanucks]

Serious question.
So the BOD told management that the priority was to “ protect the summer.” Makes sense.
So my question is, would it be possible for us to go on strike in June when we have the most financial leverage? My read of this mediation is the earliest we could strike is Aug. Is this the case? Did we just deliver to the company the most important thing they needed? Please somebody point out how this is not the case.

Coles Notes:

Company's strategy was to lock us out well BEFORE summer.

They were trying to push us into a time critical emergency.

We practiced good CRM and bought time by being PROACTIVE

We can STILL strike this summer if they come to the table and continue their grade 10 "meet you at the bike racks" thuggery tactics. Kaplan is no dummy and will see straight through their primitive negotiating strategy

Either way, the THREAT of a summer strike is still there and will FORCE the company to negotiate in a meaningful way

[Fanblade]

Serious question.
So the BOD told management that the priority was to “ protect the summer.” Makes sense.
So my question is, would it be possible for us to go on strike in June when we have the most financial leverage? My read of this mediation is the earliest we could strike is Aug. Is this the case? Did we just deliver to the company the most important thing they needed? Please somebody point out how this is not the case.

Yes the BOD wanted to protect summer.

We didn’t give up the ability to strike this summer. It wasn’t going to happen. What we avoided was a hasty April lockout.

Historical AC. Run down the clock and compress the time line. Steer the conflict into a least cost month. The problem? With the mountain of work needed to be done they ran the clock out on themselves. They put themselves in a position that if they suddenly decide to get serious now. A summer strike deadline is a potential. Leaving them feeling they had no choice but to keep going along the current path.

They want summer protected? We want them to negotiate? Voila. I can smell the terms of a deal.

The company had two choices.

1) Stay on the current path and lock us out in April with a compressed hastily negotiated timeline.

Or

2) Accept a deal that protects summer but only if they negotiate. If they don’t negotiate a summer strike/lockout becomes a real threat. Something the BOD wanted to avoid.

The company chose number 2. I’m actually surprised they did.

There will be a lot of pressure on management to negotiate particularly starting March April.

I have copy and pasted Rudder from further up the thread.

I had an opportunity to read the documents, in particular the MOA.

My surprise is not that the AC MEC agreed to this, but that AC did. The meeting schedule is extremely aggressive. AC will have several high level managers with a de facto full time commitment to the process for months (face-to-face is just a fraction of the time necessary to conduct bargaining).

Perhaps this is the price to be paid for the lack of progress to date.

I’ll bet Kaplan will crack the whip when he gets his weekly updates if sections are not being closed.

Now the real work begins. Developing proposals is easy. It happens in a bubble. Bargaining is the hard part. Choices have to be made and there is a price to be paid for saying ‘no’.

I am assuming that the ALPA IRD and EF&A departments will be present and fully engaged. That is part of what the 1.85% pays for.

Good luck.

[FNGYYZ]

As a newish guy here...

How did ACPA get played time and time again?

I can only think of two possibilities: either totally incompetent or just corrupt. Or both??

Great work ALPA

Love the communications and transparency when dealing with an airline that sticks tampons in men's washrooms instead of negotiating with the group that flies their most valuable assets...the airplanes

[RippleRock]

As a newish guy here...

How did ACPA get played time and time again?

I can only think of two possibilities: either totally incompetent or just corrupt. Or both??

Great work ALPA

Love the communications and transparency when dealing with an airline that sticks tampons in men's washrooms instead of negotiating with the group that flies their most valuable assets...the airplanes

Both.

[flyingcanuck]

As a newish guy here...

How did ACPA get played time and time again?

I can only think of two possibilities: either totally incompetent or just corrupt. Or both??

Great work ALPA

Love the communications and transparency when dealing with an airline that sticks tampons in men's washrooms instead of negotiating with the group that flies their most valuable assets...the airplanes

Theres alot to unpack here...

[RippleRock]

Serious question.
So the BOD told management that the priority was to “ protect the summer.” Makes sense.
So my question is, would it be possible for us to go on strike in June when we have the most financial leverage? My read of this mediation is the earliest we could strike is Aug. Is this the case? Did we just deliver to the company the most important thing they needed? Please somebody point out how this is not the case.

Coles Notes:

Company's strategy was to lock us out well BEFORE summer.

They were trying to push us into a time critical emergency.

We practiced good CRM and bought time by being PROACTIVE

We can STILL strike this summer if they come to the table and continue their grade 10 "meet you at the bike racks" thuggery tactics. Kaplan is no dummy and will see straight through their primitive negotiating strategy

Either way, the THREAT of a summer strike is still there and will FORCE the company to negotiate in a meaningful way

The attitude of the Company toward it's pilot group is pure bullshit. The are trying to "end run" us. Everyone should remember that at work.

They need to start respecting us, and respecting our RIGHT TO BARGAIN HONESTLY. I agree that they are using "schoolyard bully" tactics. It's time to meet them at the "bikerack" and give them a bloody nose. Show them you are prepared to meet them at that rack by wearing your red lanyard. Put it on your bag if you don't want it around your neck at minimum.

When the strike or lockout is over, DON'T FORGET that they forced you into it due to their lack of respect for you, and their lack of respect for the value you add to the operation.

HOLD THE LINE.

[bradleyscotts]

Serious question.
So the BOD told management that the priority was to “ protect the summer.” Makes sense.
So my question is, would it be possible for us to go on strike in June when we have the most financial leverage? My read of this mediation is the earliest we could strike is Aug. Is this the case? Did we just deliver to the company the most important thing they needed? Please somebody point out how this is not the case.

Coles Notes:

Company's strategy was to lock us out well BEFORE summer.

They were trying to push us into a time critical emergency.

We practiced good CRM and bought time by being PROACTIVE

We can STILL strike this summer if they come to the table and continue their grade 10 "meet you at the bike racks" thuggery tactics. Kaplan is no dummy and will see straight through their primitive negotiating strategy

Either way, the THREAT of a summer strike is still there and will FORCE the company to negotiate in a meaningful way

If the company's strategy was to lock us out before the summer why would they agree to mediation?

I also don't understand how if the company starts the process that would ultimately locks us out we then have to rush the negotiation of the contract?

[Tbayer2021]

Serious question.
So the BOD told management that the priority was to “ protect the summer.” Makes sense.
So my question is, would it be possible for us to go on strike in June when we have the most financial leverage? My read of this mediation is the earliest we could strike is Aug. Is this the case? Did we just deliver to the company the most important thing they needed? Please somebody point out how this is not the case.

Coles Notes:

Company's strategy was to lock us out well BEFORE summer.

They were trying to push us into a time critical emergency.

We practiced good CRM and bought time by being PROACTIVE

We can STILL strike this summer if they come to the table and continue their grade 10 "meet you at the bike racks" thuggery tactics. Kaplan is no dummy and will see straight through their primitive negotiating strategy

Either way, the THREAT of a summer strike is still there and will FORCE the company to negotiate in a meaningful way

If the company's strategy was to lock us out before the summer why would they agree to mediation?

I also don't understand how if the company starts the process that would ultimately locks us out we then have to rush the negotiation of the contract?

During a strike or lock out, both parties bleed financially. I believe the point of the airline trying to force an early lock out/strike, is so it happens during a more favourable time for them, ie they bleed less. By doing it off peak travel season, they lose less money and hope the pilots cave in faster than them. Specially since they know plenty of high earning pilots live paycheck to paycheck.

[altiplano]

Serious question.
So the BOD told management that the priority was to “ protect the summer.” Makes sense.
So my question is, would it be possible for us to go on strike in June when we have the most financial leverage? My read of this mediation is the earliest we could strike is Aug. Is this the case? Did we just deliver to the company the most important thing they needed? Please somebody point out how this is not the case.

Coles Notes:

Company's strategy was to lock us out well BEFORE summer.

They were trying to push us into a time critical emergency.

We practiced good CRM and bought time by being PROACTIVE

We can STILL strike this summer if they come to the table and continue their grade 10 "meet you at the bike racks" thuggery tactics. Kaplan is no dummy and will see straight through their primitive negotiating strategy

Either way, the THREAT of a summer strike is still there and will FORCE the company to negotiate in a meaningful way

If the company's strategy was to lock us out before the summer why would they agree to mediation?

I also don't understand how if the company starts the process that would ultimately locks us out we then have to rush the negotiation of the contract?

AC thinks short term.

The board directed them to protect the summer, that was their strategy.

So they threaten lockout with the goal to pressure us into a deal before summer unless we agreed to mediate with terms that can protect their summer. Ultimately, what we want is to negotiate, now we get it with an adult watching. ALPA got a very aggressive mediation schedule included in the deal and AC has to play ball or their summer will be threatened.

A lock out or strike pressures the parties to come to a deal, no pay/revenue can only go for so long and AC likes a quick deal, that probably means fewer changes.

[cdnavater]

Serious question.
So the BOD told management that the priority was to “ protect the summer.” Makes sense.
So my question is, would it be possible for us to go on strike in June when we have the most financial leverage? My read of this mediation is the earliest we could strike is Aug. Is this the case? Did we just deliver to the company the most important thing they needed? Please somebody point out how this is not the case.

Coles Notes:

Company's strategy was to lock us out well BEFORE summer.

They were trying to push us into a time critical emergency.

We practiced good CRM and bought time by being PROACTIVE

We can STILL strike this summer if they come to the table and continue their grade 10 "meet you at the bike racks" thuggery tactics. Kaplan is no dummy and will see straight through their primitive negotiating strategy

Either way, the THREAT of a summer strike is still there and will FORCE the company to negotiate in a meaningful way

If the company's strategy was to lock us out before the summer why would they agree to mediation?

I also don't understand how if the company starts the process that would ultimately locks us out we then have to rush the negotiation of the contract?

Once a strike or lockout occurs the pressure is on both side to get a deal done, if locked out the company has decided it’s in their favour and will likely give very little. With either scenario, there will likely be government pressure to get a deal done, all this condensing the timeline for negotiation under pressure means usually the big ticket items get most of the attention and AC ALPA is trying to clean up the vague language in the current CBA.
It’s in your interest to clean up as much as possible before a strike or lockout.

[unionism101]

Serious question.
So the BOD told management that the priority was to “ protect the summer.” Makes sense.
So my question is, would it be possible for us to go on strike in June when we have the most financial leverage? My read of this mediation is the earliest we could strike is Aug. Is this the case? Did we just deliver to the company the most important thing they needed? Please somebody point out how this is not the case.

Coles Notes:

Company's strategy was to lock us out well BEFORE summer.

They were trying to push us into a time critical emergency.

We practiced good CRM and bought time by being PROACTIVE

We can STILL strike this summer if they come to the table and continue their grade 10 "meet you at the bike racks" thuggery tactics. Kaplan is no dummy and will see straight through their primitive negotiating strategy

Either way, the THREAT of a summer strike is still there and will FORCE the company to negotiate in a meaningful way

If the company's strategy was to lock us out before the summer why would they agree to mediation?

I also don't understand how if the company starts the process that would ultimately locks us out we then have to rush the negotiation of the contract?

They pretty much had agree to mediation.

Imagine filing for impasse with the government and the assigned conciliator sees not only a flagrant lack of effort from the company's plus REFUSING mediation

We turned the pressure on them with their 1D strategy

[sportingrifle]

Been involved in two pilot strikes- both cases had no choice but it isn’t a fun rodeo. This is my fear , hopefully I am wrong. I usually am.

AC will cost the price if giving us whatever it takes to prevent a strike, and also the cost of the likely contract after a strike. They or their consultants know the dynamics of a strike. For the first two weeks we have the upper hand, and then the tides turn. They will then compare that cost differential against the cost of a strike, in $/day. And that is why when we strike is critical. Go out in June and a short strike makes our new gold plated contract look like a bargain. Go out in Feb. and the company is probably saving money - low yields and expensive winter ops. So they can afford to leave us out for a long time and try and break us.

Hence my original question. Thanks for the answers.