it tends to start flattening out if you hold it for too many rotations
If that is so, I might suggest spinning (upright) to the right, so that the application of power will drive the nose down via gyroscopic precession of the prop, and might also increase the effectiveness of the elevator, to also help get the nose down.
It would appear that I am in the vast minority in that I am rather fond of flat spins ... but I will admit that I prefer them inverted, instead of upright - the rudder is almost completely blanketed in an upright flat spin, while it's in nice, clean air in an inverted flat spin, so recovery is immediate.
The biggest problem in an upright flat spin is the pilot - it's going to take a rotation (or two, or three) to come out of it, most likely, and most pilots during that time will "lose the faith", panic and change the control inputs.
As long as you've planned ahead and got the altitude and have the patience to correctly recover from it, an upright flat spin is no biggie. It's quite tranquil, actually, and a marvellous view.
Hedley wrote:The biggest problem in an upright flat spin is the pilot - it's going to take a rotation (or two, or three) to come out of it, most likely, and most pilots during that time will "lose the faith", panic and change the control inputs.
I'd say thats a problem in anything other than one of the typical trainers out there today. The Cherokee and the Cessna are both very docile and quick to recover. The Tomahawk, though, while perfectly safe to spin, takes a few rotations to finally come out of it. And nobody expects or remembers that they were told this, and they start the panic.
I truly believe that everyone should fly something other than a Cessna or Piper, if not while training ppl, then shortly after. There are lots of other types out there. What'll happen when you get a cowl flap and don't know what to do with it?
Hell, I learned things flying gliders that have saved my bacon in planes more than once. You want to talk stick and rudder skills? Go soaring.
Back to the spins...
The gliding ties in here nicely. Quite a few 2 seat gliders have foward swept wings because of the CG location, aerodynamic center of pressure balancing point of the foward 15% of the etc etc blah blah engineering reasons.
What this does is make for some interesting aerodynamics, especially the spin. The wingspan and moment arms also make for some interesting control/aerodynamic issues. But I digress. I've flown a couple ships that will not recover on their own. In fact, some of the most aggressive spinners are gliders. Of course this doesn't mean they all are, but the point is that a different type may not be so docile and pilots should be aware that proper recovery technique is necessary, you won't always be able to let go.
I this respect I think Cessnas are one of the most dangerous planes to teach spins on. If you can just let go and let the plane recover on it's own, you're not really being forced to learn proper technique. It may lead to the attitude that spins are not dangerous as any plane will recover automatically (i've heard this from pilots before). It's crap. This kind of complacency is a direct result of the Cessna's characteristics and poor instruction.
Teach spins in a plane that can kill them if they @#$! it up. They'll remember how to recover and respect the aircraft more.
Mellow: I'm with you when it comes to getting training on a variety of a/c, no doubt about it that that is a good idea, and you are very right that not all a/c will unspin themselves. I would disagree that making light trainers able to unspin themselves is dangerous. This characteristic allows spin training with a safety net. Back to the original thread; what is the safest a/c for spin trainer? Any certified training a/c.
Now, for paracutes: if you want them, go for it. However, there are a lot more dangerous things to do than an unaccelerated spin for the purposes of presolo training, so you might as well wear a cute all the time. And I do stand by my assertion that the average pilot would likely be unable to egress a spinning a/c and deploy a chute.
Hey H, the transport thing is getting old, you might want to buy some creativity. Also, here is an idea, why don't you lend me one of your Pitts for ~200 hrs so I can get used to it; and then I'll be more than happy to meet you at a competition.
It's your destiny, man. Seriously. Can you fight fate?
On the subject of safety equipment ... do you bother to wear a seat belt? From your attitude, I presume no - same argument applies to it - an expensive, inconvenient waste of money.
P.S. Since you're so intelligent, I'm sure you can easily earn enough $$$ to buy yourself your own airplane
An additional $0.02 to spare: (sorry it's helping the hijack- my favorite spinning plane in the 'trainer' category is the Citabria...)
I vote on the side of: 'for standard '152' spin training, a parachute is unnecessary'- -that said after taking into consideration the QC accident.
Reason is that in order to be an effective 'Plan B', dependence on a parachute needs a certain amount of experience and judgement to begin with, and thereafter, users need to posess a state of mind that keeps cool when things go to shit. Not a lot of your average private-piloteers (or commercialeers for that metter) posess such. Throw them out of an airplane with the simple instruction 'pull this handle', and it's a crapshoot what they'll do. Student skydivers thunder in every year in similar manner. Falling, unlike a flat spin, is not a peaceful nor soothing thing, generally.
Say for instance, you're a student at 3500 ft in a 152, and initiate a two turn spin to the left. First rotation will take 400 ft, subsequent rotations 250 each, say. So in we go... around once... around twice... push opposite rudder to recover and nothing happens. The rudder pedal feels slack. By this time you've gone around once more. You're at 2600. Your instructor realizes something isn't right.. calls 'I have control' and without much ado, pushes the unresponsive rudder and applies forward yoke. In that time you've gone around once more. 2400. But now the forward yoke has accelerated the spin, now you're descending at 350 f/m. 2100. Shit eh? At this point, you remember that your hard deck 'was 2500 ft above ground. 1800. Doors open... seat belts come undone. 1400. Clamber out... out of a 152 this would not be a pleasant activity, say it takes two turns just to bumble out backwards... 800. You're out... feeling yourself fall. 600. Look for your D-ring. 400. Touch it and pull. 200. Isn't this embarassing. Line stretch and... biff... insta-crater.
Wearing parachutes for standard spin training would require employing additional training, not only on the part of students regarding hard decks, bail out procedures, how not to mess yourself once you're out the door, and how to find your D ring while hurtling towards the earth at who knows how fast; but also on the part of instructors that they can't F* around for very long when they think things are out of control- and that once they've started, there's no turning back. Even then, it's a gamble as to what people will do once they're outside of the aircraft.... see above.
That being said... there aren't enough 'freak' accidents out there re spins to require such 'straps of nylon' countermeasures. A standard spin, is, for the most part, easily recoverable... even without the use of rudder. (according to Mr Bill Kershner, the 152 can be popped out of a spin using aileron and elevator). I know a pilot who had a rudder cable failure in a spin in an Extra, and he popped it out just fine. Know your background on spins before delving into them in detail, and you're likely not going to get into a situation you cannot get out of. Jump into (advanced) spins haphazardly and... well... give the chamber a spin and pull the trigger.
Spin safety has nothing to do with wearing a parachute, and has everything to do with knowledge and judgement. Ensure you know your background, your procedures, and know when to say 'no'. Chances are you'll be fine so long as you know your shit and don't do anything stupid.
On the subject of safety equipment ... do you bother to wear a seat belt? From your attitude, I presume no - same argument applies to it - an expensive, inconvenient waste of money.
Tell you what H, you can be dead sure that I will wear a chute if I ever find myself in a plane with you.
P.S. Since you're so intelligent, I'm sure you can easily earn enough $$$ to buy yourself your own airplane
I already do, but now I want yours, think you could stop me if I showed up on your doorstep to take it?
Blue Side! How's it going!? You still instructing up at Holland Landing or did you find something closer to YXU?
I've heard that the test pilots at a certain Canadain manufacturer put a certain well known two place training type through the spin 'ringer' every now and then. For the record though, they do tote along nylon.
Hey mcrit!
Holland landing never worked out... (thankfully! in hindsight) ...nor did instructing
As has been noted, a bit of power works just fine getting a C-172 into a spin. Slow it up in a shallow turn and give it a bootful of rudder and away it goes. And it recovers nicely.
Using the C-172 spin entry technique in a Blanik gets a spectacular spin entry that can very quickly turn into a spiral dive -- have done that twice.
Don't spend too much time wondering what it means when the airspeed and noise start increasing rapidly.
Glider entries for any powered plane (that I've flown) will make it all the more interesting.
Start a gentle turn. Stick back smothly, increase rudder into the turn, counter rudder with aileron to keep it a gentle turn. Leave yourself the last few inches of travel on the stick. Just as she's about to stall, full deflection on all surfaces. Should drop in beautifully...
In a katana that should put you well past 90 degrees of roll by the time the nose drops through the horizon...
Ofcourse this was all before reading Hedley's horror stories...
The Yak's are not that safe one of my first instructors died spinning a yak
Len Perry RIP
I was told he was wearing a parachute but got stuck trying to get out of the airplane,hit the ground half -in half out.
Another instructor i flew with only had 1.5 legs .he lost half a leg in a spin accident.
Spins can be fun but sometimes lethal ask any 150 pilot who has had a rudder jam
In a katana that should put you well past 90 degrees of roll by the time the nose drops through the horizon...
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I'll have to take an instructor up with me and try that... might be fun... might not be if you end up blue side down and can't get 'er to roll around...
I'll have to take an instructor up with me and try that... might be fun... might not be if you end up blue side down and can't get 'er to roll around...
No,no. It doesn't snap-roll inverted and stop. It enters the spin so aggressively that you end up rolling through 90 before the nose drops signicantly, that's all. You'll still be in a spin, it just develops faster than normal. You might call it an aggrivated entry.
I can't see how you could ever end up not being able to roll a katana back right side up, the dihedral alone would make staying inverted hard. Ofcourse you probably could tear the bugger apart trying things like that.
Now, don't do it cause Hedley will kill me for telling you!
To answer the original question: If you want to make your students comfortable with spins go with the 172. mcrit is right, just demonstrate the 'no hands recovery'. I used to scream "Oh no, a spin we're going to die!" and hold my head for effect. Good way to get a laugh and show the student that there is nothing to be afraid of...
Cherokees are not much worse, but do need the correct imputs to recover. However some are reluctant to spin without power and one I know of was seemingly impossible to spin. As was posted before, just make sure you are within C of G and weight limits. A plane that is too hard to spin is not a great teaching aid. Neither is one that is too easy to spin (like the Traumahawk).
The Tomahawk is very easy to spin and scares students no end. I had to do 2 hours of remedial spin training with one CPL candidate prior to his test because he had avoided them like the plague in solo training. The key to the PA-38 is to allow it to slow down and stall itself. Never use an accelerated stall technique like yanking back to speed up the entry process- That was the only time I put it in a flat spin. You will need to check FULL forward to break out of a flat spin. If you are loaded too far aft or have flaps down (by accident), you might not have enough control input to get the nose down. I believe this is what has caused all the spin related accidents in the Traumahawk. It also increases spin rate very rapidly. Be very careful when doing more than a couple of rotations. It can take quite a while for the recovery to work. I spun one six times and it took another 3 or 4 rotations to get out, not too cool if altitude is at a premium and you are loosing 800-900 ft per rotation...
BTW Niss, get your instructor out and do some spins. I know it is no longer a requirement for the PPL but it is an important experience- just knowing the right steps isn't really enough IMHO. I used to make all my students do spins before they went solo (well, it was the Tomahawk). I impressed this belief to a new instructor at the school and incouraged her to do the same, which she did. It paid off when one of the students used the wrong rudder pedal practicing stalls and was able to recover despite his modest experience at the time. Even he is sure he would have bought the farm had he not recoved from a spin himself before. Keep in mind, this is not as crucial in the Cherokee you fly but couldn't hurt from a safety standpoint.
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