The End of SEIFR?

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Doc
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Re: The End of SEIFR?

Post by Doc »

To have any credibility, you have to use an entire quote. To lazy? Read it again.
You don't know much about VMC either, do you. You can easily "park" that twin in the aforementioned farmers field at well below 80. But, the real point here is....YOU get some say as to where you "park".......and, it just might find a way to get you all the way home. But, if you'd rather "glide"....fill yer boots.
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Re: The End of SEIFR?

Post by airplane rider »

Not to wade too deeply into the argument, I only have one comment to make from my point of view. I "threw" a cylinder in a Navajo coming home to Grand Cayman from Cuba on takeoff. The flight is entirely over the ocean. Because it was a twin I was able to reduce the sick engine to near idle, keeping it in reserve, and flew home on the good engine (repairs in Cuba are a nightmare). It was a long flight watching the gauges and hoping for the best, but had it been in a single, my options would have been greatly reduced. I should add that I had no pax as it was a drop-off or I would likely have made a different decision.

I know this really doesn't illustrate the twin over single argument, but under certain flying conditions (mountains, ocean, rocks and trees) I would take a twin ANY day.
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Re: The End of SEIFR?

Post by CID »

I can bring you home in a Travel Air, Aztec, Twin Comanche, or for that matter a lightly loaded Apache.
Generally speaking, when you have one of the engines fail on either of those airplanes, the only thing the remaining engine is good for is taking you to the scene of the accident.
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Re: The End of SEIFR?

Post by Rockie »

airplane rider wrote:Not to wade too deeply into the argument, I only have one comment to make from my point of view. I "threw" a cylinder in a Navajo coming home to Grand Cayman from Cuba on takeoff. The flight is entirely over the ocean. Because it was a twin I was able to reduce the sick engine to near idle, keeping it in reserve, and flew home on the good engine (repairs in Cuba are a nightmare). It was a long flight watching the gauges and hoping for the best, but had it been in a single, my options would have been greatly reduced. I should add that I had no pax as it was a drop-off or I would likely have made a different decision.

I know this really doesn't illustrate the twin over single argument, but under certain flying conditions (mountains, ocean, rocks and trees) I would take a twin ANY day.
It's 131 nautical miles of water between Cuba and Grand Caymen. Were they shooting at you in Cuba or something?
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Re: The End of SEIFR?

Post by Doc »

CID, that's just not true. You could certainly load them up to make it more difficult on yourself, but properly loaded, in the right hands, they'll bring you home. Even with a slight descent, you can still go a long way on a single engine Twin Comanche. It'll level off and easily maintain 6,000 feet or so.
I've only had one engine failure with a flat engine. That was a carb ice problem on a 150. That ended safely on a highway. Even the engines in light twins are pretty bullet proof.

airplane rider.....the rum is good in Cuba. Cigars are cheap. Some of the women are hot hot hot! I would have been tempted to beat the company credit card to death in a good hotel. That would be a long swim! Glad it worked out.
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Re: The End of SEIFR?

Post by quickflight »

airplane rider was that, vp-cdl or vp-cmj from cuba.
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Re: The End of SEIFR?

Post by airplane rider »

I'm sure you can guess...LOL

Yeah, it was CDL, and the left side. I think maybe you were still there actually. The mighty Swede was with me coming back from Cienfuegos after dropping engineers to do boat repairs after Hurricane Denis or Emily.
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Re: The End of SEIFR?

Post by gup_69 »

So...is it safe to say we're better off flying SE VFR in the clag with no air below us? Sorry boys...I'll take the altitude above the weather and a good TAWS system anyday. And I will make sure I know where I am so if things to go south I have my options. At least I'll be sitting in something that's going to get into pretty well any hole I find and walk away from it.

Cheers!
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Re: The End of SEIFR?

Post by Doc »

_69, you have NO idea what you're talking about. Do you? Keep fishing.
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Re: The End of SEIFR?

Post by gup_69 »

Seems I've struck a nerve? what is the use of an open forum when you get shot down for voicing an opinion.
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Re: The End of SEIFR?

Post by Cat Driver »

At least I'll be sitting in something that's going to get into pretty well any hole I find and walk away from it.
Ahhh we have someone who is smart and flies helicopters. :mrgreen:
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Re: The End of SEIFR?

Post by Doc »

A swing wing? Aw, that's cheaten! Sorry _69.......it all makes perfect sense now.
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Re: The End of SEIFR?

Post by gup_69 »

Helis? No, not my game.
Cat Driver wrote:
At least I'll be sitting in something that's going to get into pretty well any hole I find and walk away from it.
Ahhh we have someone who is smart and flies helicopters. :mrgreen:
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Re: The End of SEIFR?

Post by Edo »

[quote="Red Line...The engine is never actually used to more than 75% of it's rated horsepower, the automatic trend monitoring ensures early detection of any abnormalities, devices such as the torque limiter to protect the engine, and let's not forget in the unlikely event of a Py pressure leak or any other issue with the FCU, the MOR lever is there to manually control the FCU and restore engine power (again, something of which the public is never going to be informed). You can't even compare the Pilatus to a Caravan![/quote]


The Caravan has an emergency power lever that by-passes the FCU and directly controls the fuel metering valve.
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Re: The End of SEIFR?

Post by KAG »

CID wrote:
I can bring you home in a Travel Air, Aztec, Twin Comanche, or for that matter a lightly loaded Apache.
Generally speaking, when you have one of the engines fail on either of those airplanes, the only thing the remaining engine is good for is taking you to the scene of the accident.
I have seen with my own eyes an Aztec lose the critical engine at 20' (as soon as the gear doors closed thank good) and climb on one engine to circuit and come around for a safe landing. He had 6 people and fuel onboard, near gross weight.
Properly flown, the second engine will take your ass safely to the runway. Your feet will take you to the bar... :D
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Re: The End of SEIFR?

Post by snoopy »

From the Clarenville report: http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/199 ... 8a0067.asp :
1.18 Additional Information
1.18.1 SEIFR Flight

"Prior to adopting a policy on the carrying of passengers on SEIFR flights, Transport Canada (TC) conducted a study on SEIFR and published a position paper in December 1993."

Is this report anywhere to be found?
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Re: The End of SEIFR?

Post by quickflight »

Airplane rider, I forgot about that, I was on holidays with the kids when that happened. I do remember working on it when I got back. You know with the guy of the same name.

Was talking to the swede recently, thinking about going down there end of Feb for a few days.

Cheers
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Re: The End of SEIFR?

Post by Widow »

Snoopy, strangely, the "position paper" does not seem to be available ... if anyone has a copy ...

oops, <snip>
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Re: The End of SEIFR?

Post by snoopy »

CD????
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Re: The End of SEIFR?

Post by rd1331 »

This is the simplest arguement i have for having SEIFR. Weather is 1000ft. Would you rather bomb around VFR at 1000ft, or would you rather pop ontop of the cloud at say 8-10k and cruise along.

Say you have a flame out in both situations. At 1000ft you would not have enough time to restart the engine if you didn't catch it soon enough. At 8k you have plenty of time. So at 1000ft you are in the bush waiting for someone to pick you up. At 8k you return to the nearest airport and land.

Lets make it more dire. The engine completely exploids. Engine oil everywhere, on the windscreen, all over the airplane. Once again, 1000ft. You don't have much time plus now you have a windscreen that is completely covered in oil and can't see crap. Not only that but this just happened so your nerves are a little stressed. You manage in the 2-3 minutes to maybe make a mayday call, BIG maybe, and land in the bush without giving your passengers a briefing. Now again at 8-10k. Same but you now have plenty of time to make multiple mayday calls, give your lat and long, give your passengers a full briefing, and you still pop out at 1000ft visual. Your nerves are not as rattled and you are thinking more clearly. If you have a good gps, you can just about map a place to land via the gps. Oh and for the oil you make a plan to get the best vis possible.

Things i don't agree of for SEIFR
1) SEIFR in mountains, (ARE YOU INSANE)
2) SEIFR over large bodies of water, (look up to last remark)

Things i think they should change to make SEIFR more safe
1) GPWS
2) Make a standard for GPS with moving map displays
3) Must have at least 1000ft along the whole route to be flown.
4) SEIFR in mountains not allowed, same as over large bodies of water
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Re: The End of SEIFR?

Post by Snowgoose »

Edo wrote:
Red Line wrote:...The engine is never actually used to more than 75% of it's rated horsepower, the automatic trend monitoring ensures early detection of any abnormalities, devices such as the torque limiter to protect the engine, and let's not forget in the unlikely event of a Py pressure leak or any other issue with the FCU, the MOR lever is there to manually control the FCU and restore engine power (again, something of which the public is never going to be informed). You can't even compare the Pilatus to a Caravan!

The Caravan has an emergency power lever that by-passes the FCU and directly controls the fuel metering valve.

The metering valve is part of the FCU.
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Re: The End of SEIFR?

Post by Snowgoose »

rd1331 wrote:This is the simplest arguement i have for having SEIFR. Weather is 1000ft. Would you rather bomb around VFR at 1000ft, or would you rather pop ontop of the cloud at say 8-10k and cruise along.

Say you have a flame out in both situations. At 1000ft you would not have enough time to restart the engine if you didn't catch it soon enough. At 8k you have plenty of time. So at 1000ft you are in the bush waiting for someone to pick you up. At 8k you return to the nearest airport and land.

Lets make it more dire. The engine completely exploids. Engine oil everywhere, on the windscreen, all over the airplane. Once again, 1000ft. You don't have much time plus now you have a windscreen that is completely covered in oil and can't see crap. Not only that but this just happened so your nerves are a little stressed. You manage in the 2-3 minutes to maybe make a mayday call, BIG maybe, and land in the bush without giving your passengers a briefing. Now again at 8-10k. Same but you now have plenty of time to make multiple mayday calls, give your lat and long, give your passengers a full briefing, and you still pop out at 1000ft visual. Your nerves are not as rattled and you are thinking more clearly. If you have a good gps, you can just about map a place to land via the gps. Oh and for the oil you make a plan to get the best vis possible.

Things i don't agree of for SEIFR
1) SEIFR in mountains, (ARE YOU INSANE)
2) SEIFR over large bodies of water, (look up to last remark)

Things i think they should change to make SEIFR more safe
1) GPWS
2) Make a standard for GPS with moving map displays
3) Must have at least 1000ft along the whole route to be flown.
4) SEIFR in mountains not allowed, same as over large bodies of water
This always turns into a heated 1 vs. 2 engine argument. Do you have a plan of what to do if you have a heart attack? stroke? Do you carry a defibrillator with you. Do you carry a cell phone with 911 dialed and your finger on the send button? PT-6 Engine failures are as likely as a heart attacks in a 30 year old. Yes, it can happen, but not statically likely (especially is you take care of it). Plus in a twin if it happens other problems can follow. Remember the mayday episode of the Brasilia that had a prop failure? One engine was still spinning and they crashed with fatalities. Statiscally it's an unlikely event, that's even part of the certification. Why don't you argue CATSA's security policies, you'll get just as far.
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Last edited by Snowgoose on Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The End of SEIFR?

Post by Doc »

Actually, Sno, that question was on another thread....I'll be thinking of you when I feather one (as rare as that is) and bring it home on the other.
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Re: The End of SEIFR?

Post by Snowgoose »

My bad, I fixed it.

Oh, and please do as mine will be in the hanger and I will be starting into first plate of hot wings at the bar. Because that's what happens 99,999 times out of 100,000 if I remember TC spec correctly. Buffalo style, no breading and a nice Kilkenny to wash it all down.
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Re: The End of SEIFR?

Post by Doc »

And beer...don't forget beer!!
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