Online Petition to Scrap the Long Gun Registry

[grimey]

Totally unworkable Doc. It won't kill people from outside the cities to register their firearms just like it doesn't kill them to register their cars. Opposition to this is way out of proportion to the simple thing gun owners are required to do. Just register the things and take responsibility for them. It's not very hard really.

But it is stupid, pointless, and wasteful. Which is where most of the opposition comes from. Why should I register my single shot .22 and Lee-Enfield (I have registered them, I'm just wondering why I should)? The RCMP already know I'm allowed to possess weapons, as they know I have a restricted PAL. Checking the firearms registry will only provide them with many false negatives in truly dangerous situations, as few if any criminals will register their weapons. Most checks of the registry are automatic, and the officer or administrative official triggering the hit on the database often isn't at all concerned with what the results might be. Purchasing a firearm generates 3 hits on the registry. Any CPIC query by a police officer generates a hit, whether they care or not. . In cases where the registry could be used, it hasn't been, because there are few restrictions on getting a PAL. Kimvir Gil had a legally registered restricted CX4-Storm, and was known to be mentally disturbed, and the handgun registry did nothing to prevent him from killing someone at Dawson College. In cases of domestic violence, it's often not apparent that anything has to be done until someone gets shot (or in the absence of guns, stabbed, beaten, etc.).

Registering vehicles works because few criminals intend to do anything illegal with the car itself, and so they still get registered. And so the majority of accidents and incidents on the roads involve legally owned, registered vehicles. This isn't true, and will never be true for firearms used in crimes. Typically, if a violent criminal owns a gun, he owns it to aid him in committing crimes, not to get him to the grocery store. If he needs a car for something illegal, he steals one. And since it's somewhat harder to hide a stolen car than a gun, having the registry and a list of stolen cars makes sense, because it can be used effectively to help find stolen cars. The registries are targeted at different goals, and aren't comparable.

[Rockie]

The police already know I'm allowed to drive so why should I register my car? Any logic can be applied both ways.

Plenty of crimes are committed after the individual first steals a car so that it cannot be traced to him. If the car was not registered there would be no information on where it came from that could be helpful, not to mention getting it back for the owner. The bottom line is despite good reasons to register a firearm (please don't make me repeat them for the 100th time) no one has come up with good one not to yet except for the inconvenience. I'm afraid inconvenience doesn't cut it with a society that wants limitations put on weapons. Even the ones belonging to you law abiding citizens.

If the conservatives succeed in scrapping the registry you will not see me posting a single thing bemoaning the fact because I won't be a cry baby about it. They will take their chances on that and everything else next election though and will probably have a price to pay.

[xsbank]

How about the loss of 2 Billion dollars to our economy? Would you still be so much in favour of registering cars if it was $5000/year? How happy would you be about the registry if it was costing the country 10 Billion? 20? Isn't it time to draw the line?

I have already proven that the gun violence in this country is virtually negligible. If any others know of anyone who has been shot by a criminal, my condolences, but I'll bet they are few and far between yet 'everyone' on this site knows someone who has not survived cancer, heart attacks or strokes. What make NO sense at all is to choose the least likely thing to happen to you and throw 2 BILLION dollars at it. I can't even think of anything else as stupid as a gun registry just to make people feel better.

The Gallup poll:
1. all people phoned live in the area of the city therefore not a representation of the population of Canada
2. all people phoned are 9-5ers, or they would not be home during the hours called, therefore all similar. No truckers, warehousemen or shift workers (pilots?) or people who never stay home after work, skating, biking or pubbing
3. all people who responded to the survey were English speaking or French only
4. the question was yes or no, no shades of gray
5. you had to own a phone (I don't, I just use a cell)
6. if you phoned 1200 people in Prince Albert instead of Toronto you would get a totally different sample: pilots, farmers, hunters and fishermen, few of whom would be home to answer the phone
7. Does your sample include people who do not get the paper? Do not have cable? Are deaf?
8. Does your sample include people who own guns? Are victims of crimes? Have never been the victim of a crime?

Surveys can be made to say whatever your client wants them to say. Statistics Canada measures one of two ways: victim reports (All of them) or police reports (all of them too). They are not sampling but measuring the population.

A pointless, expensive program, set up in a have-not constituency for political reasons, to make a selection of the population feel better is still an idiotic waste of the taxpayer's money. It is a cynical money-grab entirely established to get votes from that part of the population that is too thick to be critical of what is fed to them by the media or by the politicians.

My father brought back three guns from the war, handguns, and he went down to the cop-shop and the chief of police signed a form registering them to my father. My father had them all his life, the local cops knew he had them, there was no cost to the country and nobody fussed.

What was wrong with that?

[Doc]

Rockie, are you feeling alone?
I'm still trying to figure how having my 30/30 registered protects society. Everybody here knows I'm unbalanced.
I have a buddy who registered a Black and Decker glue gun! He forgot to notify them when he moved. The OPP came to his new residence to have a wee chat about his "gun". Everybody looked like monkeys!
Of course, in university, I got a credit card for my cat.....
Nothing to prevent a legally registered firearm from being used in a crime, if the owner were to "snap"?
Don't even get me started on the Boat Operator's Card....frikken money grab!

[grimey]

The police already know I'm allowed to drive so why should I register my car? Any logic can be applied both ways.

Because registering it aids in finding it after it's stolen, finding out who was involved in an accident, and in providing insurance. In other words, it's useful. How does the firearms registry help prevent crime?

Plenty of crimes are committed after the individual first steals a car so that it cannot be traced to him. If the car was not registered there would be no information on where it came from that could be helpful, not to mention getting it back for the owner. The bottom line is despite good reasons to register a firearm (please don't make me repeat them for the 100th time) no one has come up with good one not to yet except for the inconvenience. I'm afraid inconvenience doesn't cut it with a society that wants limitations put on weapons. Even the ones belonging to you law abiding citizens.

Really? 2 billion in wasted funds isn't a good reason? The cost of the firearms registry has pulled significant funds away from useful law enforcement initiatives. As implemented, it was also insecure, and susceptible to being exploited by thieves. You haven't provided any good reasons that I should register my firearms that are backed up by facts. It cannot be shown to have reduced crime or to have increased public safety beyond what existing laws and law enforcement initiatives already had.

If the conservatives succeed in scrapping the registry you will not see me posting a single thing bemoaning the fact because I won't be a cry baby about it. They will take their chances on that and everything else next election though and will probably have a price to pay.

[Cat Driver]

How does the firearms registry help prevent crime?

It doesn't.

But maybe Rockie can change my mind.

[Dex]

We have to assume by now that the government knows the majority of shootings are not being committed with long guns stolen from inside Canada. Bill C-68 was a political decision, not a safety issue.
Many, including myself, happen to believe that “knowing” is a prelude to “taking”, and if not this government, then some other - I can think of no reasonable reason why the government needs to know whether I do or do not have any firearms, and if I do, how many, and of what type, they are.

Interesting article, Siddley. I can’t locate the article I read recently, but I do remember the number of expired permits to be in the area of 185,000. For the fourth year the government is going to extend amnesty for 185,000 paper criminals. You know, if they chose to enforce the law, these 185,000 persons, are looking at up to 5 years in jail. In Toronto we are having a gun killing a day now.. but this can't be happening because we have gun control!

If the registry can prove that crimes committed with long guns did not come from licensed firearms owners then that is VERY GOOD for gun owners. We would have documented evidence that Canadian gun owners are not responsible for gun crimes! Would make it very hard to argue that banning firearms from responsible owners makes Canada safer.

If we delve into some firearms owners paranoia and pretend there becomes a ban on long guns, what would you do with your illegal guns anyways? You couldn't discharge them for fear of being arrested and going to jail. You couldn't even really display them or tell people you have them. What good would they be? But hey!! You showed the "man" didn't ya?

The 2 billion was and is a fiasco. What we should be doing is demanding an efficient cost effective firearms registry. It can be done and has been done.
If you are an investigator who just found a stash of shotguns in a gangbangers apartment how would you find out if that gun came to Canada through legal means and ended up being sold to gangbangers? How much time and money would it take to find out the last licensed person responsible for that weapon; if at all?

The registry is also a tool to help fight political subversion from foreign entities/countries. Canada is a resource rich country. The new and future geopolitical realities makes Canada the Middle East to new and growing empires. We all know what the USA did to the middle east to ensure its dominion over middle east resources.
Ironically the first Canadian firearms registry was created for this purpose.

[Topspin]

If the registry can prove that crimes committed with long guns did not come from licensed firearms owners then that is VERY GOOD for gun owners. We would have documented evidence that Canadian gun owners are not responsible for gun crimes! Would make it very hard to argue that banning firearms from responsible owners makes Canada safer.

The evidence is pretty clear cut that registered firearms are not used in organized crime.

The 2 billion was and is a fiasco. What we should be doing is demanding an efficient cost effective firearms registry. It can be done and has been done.

And lot's of us would likely be all for it. However my confidence in the federal governments ability to accomplish that is sitting lower than my confidence in the federal NDP forming a government. It could theoretically happen, but I'll likely be dead by then.

If you are an investigator who just found a stash of shotguns in a gangbangers apartment how would you find out if that gun came to Canada through legal means and ended up being sold to gangbangers? How much time and money would it take to find out the last licensed person responsible for that weapon; if at all?

It really isn't that black and white. A $2 file easily renders a registered firearm unregistered. Firearms are often assembled from different parts. IE most AR owners purchase an upper, then a lower, then a bolt. Three different registrations. Bolt wears out on any firearm, it gets replaced, that firearm is now unregistered. This doesn't even come close to starting with the hundreds of thousands of already unregistered firearms in Canada.

[Rockie]

Rockie, are you feeling alone?

No I'm not Doc, but thanks for asking

I'm not trying to implement a gun registry because that's already been done. The reason it's been done of course is because a large majority of Canadians wanted it done. There are also people on this site who support it although only a couple actually bother to say so (one of them owns guns too in case you weren't reading the whole thread). And finally, I don't feel lonely because my happiness or sense of security doesn't hinge on this registry in any way.

I do support it though for all the reasons I've already stated many times here. But more than that, 2 billion dollars of our money went into creating it. That goes beyond incompetence into the realm of criminality and as I've also stated many times here I think some people need to be sent to prison for it. Now that we have this very expensive registry though, the only thing more incompetent than setting it up would be shutting it down. I want to get something for all that money, and given that and the fact I support it to begin with, your annoyance at the minor inconvenience of registering your guns is waaaaayyy down the list of things I think are important. If you pay any attention to our society you will realize most Canadians feel the same way.

[Cat Driver]

If you pay any attention to our society you will realize most Canadians feel the same way.

Not the ones I know.

Then again I am probably not a " Good Canadian " because I have become jaded by having worked and lived in some of those countries you are so fond of using as comparisons to Canada's way of government to support your personal belief's Rockie.

At least Canada has not gotten to forced mind control and we can express our opinions without being put in jail or whipped in public....for now.

[Topspin]

Good quote:

Ontario Provincial Police Commissioner Julian Fantino is opposed to the gun registry, stating in a press release:

We have an ongoing gun crisis including firearms-related homicides lately in Toronto, and a law registering firearms has neither deterred these crimes nor helped us solve any of them. None of the guns we know to have been used were registered, although we believe that more than half of them were smuggled into Canada from the United States. The firearms registry is long on philosophy and short on practical results considering the money could be more effectively used for security against terrorism as well as a host of other public safety initiatives."

You want to talk about criminality. For two billion dollars: The registry shows as of 2008, 6.4 million guns registered. Yet there are an estimated 7.2-11 million firearms in Canada according tot eh justice department. Oh not to mention the thousands of registered glue & soldering guns that flaw those stats.
What public program in the history of the Canadian government has managed to reduce operating costs?

Especially when doing things like paying Liberal party consultant Kim Doran $380,000/year to lobby for the registry's continued existense. Small wonder they want to keep it eh? Why are these people not in prison?

[yfly]

Rockie, are you feeling alone?

No I'm not Doc, but thanks for asking

I'm not trying to implement a gun registry because that's already been done. The reason it's been done of course is because a large majority of Canadians wanted it done. There are also people on this site who support it although only a couple actually bother to say so (one of them owns guns too in case you weren't reading the whole thread). And finally, I don't feel lonely because my happiness or sense of security doesn't hinge on this registry in any way.

I do support it though for all the reasons I've already stated many times here. But more than that, 2 billion dollars of our money went into creating it. That goes beyond incompetence into the realm of criminality and as I've also stated many times here I think some people need to be sent to prison for it. Now that we have this very expensive registry though, the only thing more incompetent than setting it up would be shutting it down. I want to get something for all that money, and given that and the fact I support it to begin with, your annoyance at the minor inconvenience of registering your guns is waaaaayyy down the list of things I think are important. If you pay any attention to our society you will realize most Canadians feel the same way.

He isn't alone Doc. I just don't have the patience Rockie does to continue the discussion. Everyone on here citing polls has shot the other polls down with disclaimers that polls can be massaged to say whatever you want. What makes yours more accurate?

I know there was an outcry from many of the public when the registry began, but it sure didn't come from law enforcement. They were foursquare in favour and are to this day despite the cluster it has become.

Rockie is correct and actually has a pretty solid middle ground stance. It was executed poorly. A lot of taxpayer money was wasted but throwing it away now rather than fixing it is a bigger waste of those funds.

Is that 2 billion going to remanifest if the registry is terminated?

[Dex]

If the registry can prove that crimes committed with long guns did not come from licensed firearms owners then that is VERY GOOD for gun owners. We would have documented evidence that Canadian gun owners are not responsible for gun crimes! Would make it very hard to argue that banning firearms from responsible owners makes Canada safer.

The evidence is pretty clear cut that registered firearms are not used in organized crime.

And without the registry you could not make that statement.

The 2 billion was and is a fiasco. What we should be doing is demanding an efficient cost effective firearms registry. It can be done and has been done.

And lot's of us would likely be all for it. However my confidence in the federal governments ability to accomplish that is sitting lower than my confidence in the federal NDP forming a government. It could theoretically happen, but I'll likely be dead by then.

Thats funny! I didn't hear anyone complain about the costs or the quality of the restricted firearms registry. This must be evidence that the Federal Government can do it right. If you demand it, they will do it.

If you are an investigator who just found a stash of shotguns in a gangbangers apartment how would you find out if that gun came to Canada through legal means and ended up being sold to gangbangers? How much time and money would it take to find out the last licensed person responsible for that weapon; if at all?

It really isn't that black and white. A $2 file easily renders a registered firearm unregistered. Firearms are often assembled from different parts. IE most AR owners purchase an upper, then a lower, then a bolt. Three different registrations. Bolt wears out on any firearm, it gets replaced, that firearm is now unregistered. This doesn't even come close to starting with the hundreds of thousands of already unregistered firearms in Canada.

A file will not render a registered firearm "unregistered". Changing a bolt on a firearm will not "unregister" it. Please do not get your information about firearms from television!!!!

[Doc]

Every gun in this country could be tracked by two nerds in a basement with a Commodore 64! Okay, maybe a modern MAC BOOK. Seriously. They wouldn't even have to be centrally located in Moncton NB!
You'd need what? Name and address of owner, type of gun, serial numbers of guns. Issue cute little cards every five years to track owner's movements. Really, that would do it. Two Billion Dollars? A total, typical, bureaucratic waste of the tax payer's money. And trust.

[Topspin]

If the registry can prove that crimes committed with long guns did not come from licensed firearms owners then that is VERY GOOD for gun owners. We would have documented evidence that Canadian gun owners are not responsible for gun crimes! Would make it very hard to argue that banning firearms from responsible owners makes Canada safer.

The evidence is pretty clear cut that registered firearms are not used in organized crime.

And without the registry you could not make that statement.

So the registry's Raison d'etre is to prove it's uselessness?

The 2 billion was and is a fiasco. What we should be doing is demanding an efficient cost effective firearms registry. It can be done and has been done.

And lot's of us would likely be all for it. However my confidence in the federal governments ability to accomplish that is sitting lower than my confidence in the federal NDP forming a government. It could theoretically happen, but I'll likely be dead by then.

Thats funny! I didn't hear anyone complain about the costs or the quality of the restricted firearms registry. This must be evidence that the Federal Government can do it right. If you demand it, they will do it.

That probably has something to do with the concealability and popularity of handguns. The fact that there is a resident danger, and I'm happy they go through further evaluation before handing over handguns.

And firearms owners bi$ch about registering restricted all the time. Why the hell is an AR-15 restricted? Because it looks like an army gun from TV? Yet guns like the M-14 comes from a history of being a standard issue military rifle, is manufactured with a fully automatic capacity, and is capable of doing far more damage, and represents a far greater danger to innocents in a crossfire than an AR-15 ever could.

But the AR-15 looks like the army gun from TV(big and scary), so you can't varmit hunt with it? The Mini-14 is almost an exact replica to the AR in terms of physics, but again, non-restricted.

These things make no sense at all.

If you are an investigator who just found a stash of shotguns in a gangbangers apartment how would you find out if that gun came to Canada through legal means and ended up being sold to gangbangers? How much time and money would it take to find out the last licensed person responsible for that weapon; if at all?

It really isn't that black and white. A $2 file easily renders a registered firearm unregistered. Firearms are often assembled from different parts. IE most AR owners purchase an upper, then a lower, then a bolt. Three different registrations. Bolt wears out on any firearm, it gets replaced, that firearm is now unregistered. This doesn't even come close to starting with the hundreds of thousands of already unregistered firearms in Canada.

A file will not render a registered firearm "unregistered". Changing a bolt on a firearm will not "unregister" it. Please do not get your information about firearms from television!!!!

Of course a file will render a firearm unregistered. The only way to identify individual firearms is by serial numbers, easily removed. The gun in question could still have a registration in existence, but it is impossible to match the two.

And changing a bolt does un-register. The bolt is the only part of the firearm that is registered. I could easily order an AR lower from colt or M92 frame from Beretta right now, and not have to register them. It's a piece of plastic and metal that looks like a firearm, but it isn't a firearm. It has no capacity to discharge ammunition. The original bolt may or may not share a common serial number with the rest of the firearm, but that's rather irrelevant.
That's why the CFC asks you to report changes when firearms are modified. (Again, honor system, nobody actually does this.)

I own a bolt-less Remington 700, bought off a US buy & sell. Declared to customs as firearms parts (The same way high capacity magazines are brought across, legally of course, not even smuggled), & duty paid. No requirement of registration.

Where do you come up with this stuff??

[Topspin]

Every gun in this country could be tracked by two nerds in a basement with a Commodore 64! Okay, maybe a modern MAC BOOK. Seriously. They wouldn't even have to be centrally located in Moncton NB!
You'd need what? Name and address of owner, type of gun, serial numbers of guns. Issue cute little cards every five years to track owner's movements. Really, that would do it. Two Billion Dollars? A total, typical, bureaucratic waste of the tax payer's money. And trust.

I lost track of the URL, but it will probably bother most owners that at one point, (and probably still is) all of the registration information, all the way to home address was publicly available on the internet for no charge.

Edit: Looks like they got sued. It's scaled way back to postal codes only.

http://www2.canada.com/ottawacitizen/fe ... /form.html

http://www2.canada.com/ottawacitizen/ne ... 3c6669f4d7

Gun registry posting doesn't violate privacy

Glen McGregor, The Ottawa Citizen

Published: Thursday, January 10, 2008

The privacy commissioner has rejected complaints from firearms owners who claimed their privacy was violated by a searchable copy of the federal gun registry posted on the Citizen website.

The Citizen last year obtained a copy of the gun registry from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police through an Access to Information request and made an online version of the database available to readers to accompany a series of reports on firearm licensing.

The searchable index contains listings of the more than seven million individual firearms registered with the government, but does not include fields containing owners' names or addresses. It does, however, include the first two characters of owners' postal codes, providing the approximate location of each firearm.

Last year, some gun owners filed complaints with Privacy Commissioner Jennifer Stoddart, saying the data could be used by thieves to target homes or businesses known to contain certain types of guns.

However, in a report to Parliament, Ms. Stoddart writes that the complaints were not well-founded and concluded that the RCMP had taken precautions to ensure gun owners would remain anonymous before the data were released to The Citizen.

"The RCMP had released information about registered firearms as well as the registration date, client type and the first two digits of the individual's postal code," her report says. "This was not considered personal information under the Privacy Act, which consists of information about an 'identifiable individual.'"

The data from the RCMP included information on the make, model and manufacturer of each registered firearm. The vast majority of manufacturers are commercial gun makers, but some have complained that, in a small proportion of records in the database, the owners are listed as the manufacturers. Most of these appear to be cases in which the owners built their own guns. Ms. Stoddart did not address this point in her report.

The Access to Information Act allows Canadians to get most records held by the federal government.

However, personal information such as names and addresses are exempt from release under the act.

When the database first went online, the National Firearms Association said it would become "a shopping list" for thieves who are familiar with the firearms community in their area. Blair Hagen, the NFA vice-president, says he doesn't have any direct proof the database has been used in a crime, but says gun owners are concerned.

"It's the potential for an enterprising person go in and work the online registry or finesse it," he said.

However, Mr. Hagen says the database has turned out to be a useful research tool for opponents of the gun registry to show the errors and omissions it contains. "It has been a boon to us. We've been harvesting the registry to find all the mistakes in it."

Graham Green, executive editor of The Citizen, said he was pleased with Ms. Stoddart's conclusions.

"It has always been our belief that it is in the public interest for such information to be made easily accessible, while at the same time protecting the privacy of law-abiding Canadians who have registered their guns with the federal government," he said.

[Just another canuck]

This is too long to read... could someone tell me one thing, does it cost the gun owner anything to register the gun?

[grimey]

By law, yes. But the current government is choosing not to enforce the law, by waiving the fee and not pursuing those who haven't registered.

[NWONT]

The only price you must pay at this time is the two billion in tax dollars for this disaster and the last estimate I heard was 165 million per year to keep it going. That is to cover costs to re-register all rifles every time a person moves or father gives rifle to son or person sells a rifle. I'm sure the operating estimate is very low as with all things in government. I burnt myself out on this subject with "Kateys firearm facts" so will let you guys rehash it all. As it has been said , this expense is just to make city people feel safer.

[Rockie]

The only price you must pay at this time is the two billion in tax dollars for this disaster and the last estimate I heard was 165 million per year to keep it going. That is to cover costs to re-register all rifles every time a person moves or father gives rifle to son or person sells a rifle. I'm sure the operating estimate is very low as with all things in government. I burnt myself out on this subject with "Kateys firearm facts" so will let you guys rehash it all. As it has been said , this expense is just to make city people feel safer.

Katy's your source for facts? How do you feel about Community Air?

Personally I ignore any facts coming from any pro-gun or anti-gun group because they each have an agenda that at the very least strongly biases their interpretion of those "facts".

[Just another canuck]

My Uncle owns about 300 guns of all different shapes and sizes... no wonder he's so upset about all this.

I own 3 rifles and 3 shotguns... I don't use them anymore and my old man does, so he just registered them under his name. I never thought it was a big deal about the registering of the guns. If it personally doesn't cost me anything, then why worry, but like usual I fail to see the big picture when it comes to this sort of thing. The whole idea does seem a little ridiculous.

[NWONT]

No Rockie, Katey is not my source but it is the title of the thread. There was a lot of information covered and viewpoints discussed. Trying to talk sense to anyone from the GTA is a waste of breath. Most can't comprehend just how much money 2 billion is. We are cutting back on healthcare and other important sevices because there are not enough tax dollars to cover them yet we continue to throw away millions on this insanity. You mentioned a never ending list of all the things we register. Why do we do that? Why do we register ATV's and snowmobiles that are never driven on public roads. Once registered then the powers that be says they must be insured, which is also taxed. It just never ends. I give up.

[xsbank]

And so do I.

[Four1oh]

It's pretty obvious Rockie has no idea what he's talking about. Petition signed.

Good for you.

By the way, it's spelled "wasting".

Bravo!

*sound of a golf clap in the background*

You figured that out all by yourself?

[BigB]

Signed.