A water bomber question.

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog

North Shore
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 5621
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 3:47 pm
Location: Straight outta Dundarave...

Re: A water bomber question.

Post by North Shore »

Rudy,

the main fleet in MB is 215's, and they are owned by the Province. There are 2? companies that operate 802's in the province - they are Westman Aerial (can't remember the 2nd :oops: ) normally, they are agricultural (spray plane) operators, but are hired on as needed for SEAT ops..

Hope that helps..
---------- ADS -----------
 
Say, what's that mountain goat doing up here in the mist?
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18921
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: A water bomber question.

Post by Cat Driver »

CLguy the policies vary from province to province and one of the most startling decisions I ever heard come from their deep thinkers was in 1974 or 75 when we had a contract in B.C. for the Cats.

At the end of the season they informed us that they were not renewing the contract the following year because water is not effective for fire suppression and they were only going to use long term retardant.

So it all depends on several factors I guess, the politics driving the contracts and the IQ of the people in the forestry in question.
---------- ADS -----------
 
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18921
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: A water bomber question.

Post by Cat Driver »

Isn't it simply amazing how civil and sane this thread is?

Avcanada never ceases to amaze me.
:mrgreen:
---------- ADS -----------
 
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
North Shore
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 5621
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 3:47 pm
Location: Straight outta Dundarave...

Re: A water bomber question.

Post by North Shore »

At the end of the season they informed us that they were not renewing the contract the following year because water is not effective for fire suppression and they were only going to use long term retardant.
:lol: I wonder how much it cost to get a civil servant to say that?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Say, what's that mountain goat doing up here in the mist?
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
302sc
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:40 pm

Re: A water bomber question.

Post by 302sc »

CAT... you definitively had the best of both worlds, I will never know that pleasure and satisfaction. but as you know civil servants nowadays have a way of turning any efficient programs into work projects with so much red tape they crashes generally under their own weight . the nwt is a place where work projects are the rules .



supposedly in 2011 electras will be in the pits in hay river replacing the DC-4's and would it not be incredible if tankers were, like in ontario given lattitude to operate if BDO were not available. imagine ! yeah . dream on !!

any way I am done up there.
---------- ADS -----------
 
sky's the limit
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 4614
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 11:38 am
Location: Now where's the starter button on this thing???

Re: A water bomber question.

Post by sky's the limit »

CLguy wrote: Hey STL sounds like there is no shortage of work for you, so fill your boots!! Stay safe!!

Holy crap.... busy is right.

I've never heard so many machines on the radio from so many parts of the District as today, I think everything is hired..... Too tired to check numbers, but I heard a rumour of 200 Intermediate helicopters on in BC... I'd tend to believe it after getting back to work.

stl
---------- ADS -----------
 
CD
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2731
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:13 pm
Location: Canada

Re: A water bomber question.

Post by CD »

sky's the limit wrote:Holy crap.... busy is right.

I've never heard so many machines on the radio from so many parts of the District as today, I think everything is hired..... Too tired to check numbers, but I heard a rumour of 200 Intermediate helicopters on in BC... I'd tend to believe it after getting back to work.

stl
The Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre (CIFFC) is reporting the following numbers for August 4th:

Casual Hire Helicopters - BC

Light - 98
Intermediate - 202
Medium - 92
Heavy - 23
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
HS-748 2A
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1125
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:39 pm
Location: Rock 101

Re: A water bomber question.

Post by HS-748 2A »

is an Astar intermediate and a 206 light?

Never really heard the term before. Light, medium and heavy it used to be.
---------- ADS -----------
 
The fastest way to turn money into smoke and noise..
User avatar
CLguy
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1602
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:54 pm
Location: Reality!

Re: A water bomber question.

Post by CLguy »

Two CL-415's left Ontario yesterday and 2 more are on deck!!

Cat I find your comments very interesting regarding only retardant in BC! In 1995 we had 5 CL-215's working in Penticton when one of the top Fire Managers for the province, don't remember the name came and shook the hands of the crews there. At the time he was asked why BC never bought any 215's when the Feds and Provinces got into bed together to create the national fleet and he stated that they told (not sure by who) that scoopers could not work in BC and would be ineffective. He then went on to say, "we now know that we have been fed a bad bill of goods."
---------- ADS -----------
 
You Can Love An Airplane All You Want, But Remember, It Will Never Love You Back!
User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18921
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: A water bomber question.

Post by Cat Driver »

"we now know that we have been fed a bad bill of goods."
Yes CLGuy the world revolves around power and money.

When we worked together the industry was just beginning to change driven by several powerful groups with their own agenda.

B.C. chose to go the route of land based tankers and decided that the water scoopers were not effective and they used the mantra that water was not effective in fire suppression but long term was.

What they failed to mention was the big scoopers were quite capable of carrying long term where needed and can change over to scooping when ever they so desire.

Remember the days when we would all line up for retardant in Kenora PBY's, Cl215's and land based machines like the Tracker all of us working together and the scoopers using water once on the fires?

Here is another question for you guys who fly air attack machines.

If Kelowna had a group of 415's based at the Kelowna airport for the past twenty years would there be less burnt out homes in Kelowna?

Another point I should mention water scoopers make for great background pieces for photography as long as the photographers understand how to dress them up. :mrgreen:

Andy called me a few weeks ago...he is now retired in Florida. :mrgreen:
---------- ADS -----------
 
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
User avatar
Driving Rain
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2696
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: At a Tanker Base near you.
Contact:

Re: A water bomber question.

Post by Driving Rain »

Andy called me a few weeks ago...he is now retired in Florida
He called me a while back too .. Did he tell you he got married? I darn near dropped the phone :shock:

Newfoundland doesn't use bird dogs at all.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18921
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: A water bomber question.

Post by Cat Driver »

Yeh old Andy finally got caught. :mrgreen:


Newfoundland doesn't use bird dogs at all.
And I bet they still get the fires under control and don't run into each other or kill ground crew.
---------- ADS -----------
 
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
. ._
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7374
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:50 pm
Location: Cowering in my little room because the Water Cooler is locked.
Contact:

Re: A water bomber question.

Post by . ._ »

Cat Driver wrote: At the end of the season they informed us that they were not renewing the contract the following year because water is not effective for fire suppression and they were only going to use long term retardant.
Hmm. When I was a kid and played with matches with my buddies. We knew then that if the fire got out of control, we could whip out our "water hoses" and piss on a fire to make it go out if we had to. This burned less shoes from stamping out a fire. (and our mothers asking us why our shoes were melted and black :wink: )

Maybe the powers at the time never played with matches as kids.

-istp :smt102
---------- ADS -----------
 
North Shore
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 5621
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 3:47 pm
Location: Straight outta Dundarave...

Re: A water bomber question.

Post by North Shore »

in 1995 we had 5 CL-215's working in Penticton
Grrrrrr. We're sitting here, bored out of our minds because of cool temps and humidity, with one group on the CIFFC board, knowing that because of the "no piston-engined scoopers in BC" mantra from the BCFS, there's no chance of us going west. Yet, as the above says, there used to be - how did the following 14 years change things?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Say, what's that mountain goat doing up here in the mist?
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18921
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: A water bomber question.

Post by Cat Driver »

knowing that because of the "no piston-engined scoopers in BC" mantra from the BCFS, there's no chance of us going west.
The taxpayers of B.C. should ask whoever makes these moronic decisions in B.C. Forest Service why a piston engine airplane can not water bomb in B.C.

And while they are at it ask how many loads of water a 215 could scoop and dump on those fires in Kelowna while the land based bombers are flying back and forth to Penticton.

The problem of course is the Canadian sheep mentality that is content being ruled by idiots.
Yet, as the above says, there used to be - how did the following 14 years change things.
B.C. Forest service management maybe?
---------- ADS -----------
 
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
mag check
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 631
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:24 am
Location: Drink in my hand, feet in the sand

Re: A water bomber question.

Post by mag check »

North Shore wrote:
in 1995 we had 5 CL-215's working in Penticton
Grrrrrr. We're sitting here, bored out of our minds because of cool temps and humidity, with one group on the CIFFC board, knowing that because of the "no piston-engined scoopers in BC" mantra from the BCFS, there's no chance of us going west. Yet, as the above says, there used to be - how did the following 14 years change things?
Aren't the Mars piston, and based in BC?
---------- ADS -----------
 
We're all here, because we're not all there.
Trevor
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 168
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:29 am
Location: Alberta

Re: A water bomber question.

Post by Trevor »

The BCFS' stance on scoopers never affected the Mars because, until recently, Flying Tankers was used as a privately owned fire department by its lumber company owners. Only when the fire situation got bad enough would the BCFS request their assistance, and the Mars would have to be released from watching over the lumber company's lands. Since the same conditions threatening homes on the mainland usually threatened the company's lumber stands (and therefore their money), releasing the Mars was a rare occurance.

The BCFS has only really been able to call on the Mars in the last decade or so, as MacMillan Bloedel and Timberwest began carrying the financial burden themselves, seeing how much it cost to have two massive bombers waiting around instead of working.

As someone else mentioned, the Hawaii Mars is in California because that's where its contract says it stays. No contract for the Philippine Mars means it sits in Sproat Lake until the cheque book opens.

Why are CL-415s now flying in BC? Primarily because that's what the Canadian Air Tanker fleet is equipped with. When the decision was made in the past (a highly political one), the land based operator was pushing against its scooper competition, basically the PBYs of The Flying Fireman Ltd. They're arguement was that it took too long for a PBY to climb up and over the mountains when compared to their land based tankers. I can't speak to the accuracy of that argument because I never flew either type, nor do I think was a formal fly-off ever carried out. I don't know if the situation would have changed had someone started using CL-215s in BC, but by then, Conair was massive, and very much entrenched.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Clear skies and calm winds...

Trevor
Trevor
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 168
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:29 am
Location: Alberta

Re: A water bomber question.

Post by Trevor »

Why no pistons? Because the buereacrats in the government don't sit down and talk with the people who actually do the work.

Alberta has gone all turbine. BC's almost there, so are the Territories. Why? Because someone in an office somewhere figured it would be more cost effective to stock only one type of fuel (Jet) at all the tanker bases. So where a CL-215 easily out does a Fireboss, because the Air Tractors have turbines, they're the ones selected. Same with the A-26s, and soon to be DC-4s. Today, the CL-215s from both Buffalo Airways and Air Spray are in Turkey and their owners are glad they were able to dump them when they could.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Clear skies and calm winds...

Trevor
User avatar
Cat Driver
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 18921
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm

Re: A water bomber question.

Post by Cat Driver »

Why no pistons? Because the buereacrats in the government don't sit down and talk with the people who actually do the work.
Exactly.

However the bureaucrats in government work for the taxpayer.

I would love to see the taxpayers in Kelowna ask these bureaucrats why there is equipment available such as the CL 215 that could well make the difference between losing homes and saving them but they can't be used because some moron sitting in a government office decides they don't have the right engines for the job.

Idiots.
---------- ADS -----------
 
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
User avatar
CLguy
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1602
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:54 pm
Location: Reality!

Re: A water bomber question.

Post by CLguy »

Last time I looked a DC-6 has piston engines and that is what you see everytime there is a mention of Kelowna being evacuated on the National News. Seems kind of hypocritical to me!!

As to whether there would be less trees burned around Kelowna had they had 415's based there is anyones guess. The one thing for sure is there wouldn't be more and if utulized properly I truly feel there would have been a lot less trees and homes consumed.

I laugh when they stated that it took the PBY too long to climb and again you see a DC-6 on the National. Anyone ever seen them try and climb. It is a good thing the earth is round!!!

Sounds to me like someone owns a couple of politicians!! Hmmmm!!!!!
---------- ADS -----------
 
You Can Love An Airplane All You Want, But Remember, It Will Never Love You Back!
User avatar
DHC5
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:16 pm

Re: A water bomber question.

Post by DHC5 »

2 DUCKS currently in YXS along with Gov of Sask CV580's and 1 L188
2 L188's in YKA
4 AT802 Firebosses in YQZ
2 Firecats and 3 AT802's in YRV
2 CV580's in YYF
1 CV580 and L188 YPU
4 Firecats YXX
Gov SK CV580 in YYD with a L188
NB 802's supposedly enroute along with 2 more ON Ducks and 3 QC Ducks on deck.

Not sure where the Conair DC-6's are, but last I heard was 1 in YXS and one in Alaska still.

Several air charters bringing firefighters from SK, MB and ON in the form of B737-700'S, B737-400's, ATR42's, SAAB340's and B1900'S arriving into YKA almost every other day. Also 28 firefighters from Australia and 18 from NZ arrived the other day, but are fire behavious specialists and not sure if being dispatched into the fire zones??

Now, let's see the DC10 TANKER and EIA 747 show up and see who drops the most?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Pitot/SAS/Low/Auto
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 12:58 pm
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

Re: A water bomber question.

Post by Pitot/SAS/Low/Auto »

DHC5 wrote: Not sure where the Conair DC-6's are, but last I heard was 1 in YXS and one in Alaska still
Saw one in YXJ (Ft. St. John) the other day.....
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
DHC5
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:16 pm

Re: A water bomber question.

Post by DHC5 »

In regards to the CL215's, I have heard it was a climb performance issue in mountainous territory that is the reason the CL215's aren't being used, not just a piston equipped aircraft issue as they are still operating the S2 Firecats and DC6's in B.C.
Apparently they (CL215'S) use up a lot of real estate when fully loaded off the lake to get any altitude, and when the real estate is limited in some of the lakes they scoop from, it becomes an issue.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”