How to get more young people in a cockpit?

[husky]

You haven't started flight training yet. It's not too late. Get out now before you lose years of your life and even more years of debt.

[traveller123]

There is a shortage of pilots, but surely not in Canada.

I read earlier this year Vietnam and Philippines airlines grounded some airbus because they didn't have any pilot to fly their aircrafts...

Could you see this situation with Air Canada? Definitely NOT. That's the basic rule of supply and demand.

[North Shore]

Call me a pessimist, but when I see Boeing's rosy predictions of 30,000 more commercial aeroplanes, the first question I ask is "where is the fuel going to come from to run them?"

Agreed with the 'bums in flight college seats' and low wages comments above..

[v6g]

What price for a barrel of oil are they basic their growth predictions on?

[RenegadeAV8R]

Call me a pessimist, but when I see Boeing's rosy predictions of 30,000 more commercial aeroplanes, the first question I ask is "where is the fuel going to come from to run them?"

C'mon Man, no government will let Peak Oil happens

(BTW, I am being sarcastic)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil

[RenegadeAV8R]

... Boeing(which makes simulators ...) ...

When did Boeing started making simulator? Did Boeing bought a simulators manufacturer? The last time I went into an Alteon training center, the sims were from various simulators manufacturers, but none were from Boeing itself.

[ditar]

My view is if your passion is to be an airline pilot don't jump into the industry unless your passion is truly to fly, if not, it will be a long miserable ride.

In my opinion, the exact opposite is true. I think one key to success in this industry is to be balanced. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. "Passion" is what is wrong with this business. Passions cause people to make irrational decisions. Working for free, risking your life to get a load of chips some place in poor weather, not knowing when to walk away for whatever reason, and so on. If many people took a more objective attitude toward their career instead of regarding aviation as their singular calling in life then I have no doubt things would improve, both for those individuals personally and for the industry as a whole.

People who live and breathe aviation, with seemingly no other interests or focus in life, worry me. I've been involved with interviewing pilot candidates before, and something I've asked is for them to describe something they are passionate about. If right away, without any hesitation, they say aviation, I get worried. I'd much rather they tell me about their family or playing the guitar or anything else that indicates they might have some focus in their life outside of flying airplanes.

I really enjoy flying. I feel very fortunate to have a job that doesn't feel like a job. But at the end of the day, it's a means to an end, not my identity.

[Stephen Szikora]

Folks, there is legislation in Parliament right now to eliminate the mandatory retirement age from all federally regulated industries. There have also been some recent court cases requiring the elimination of mandatory retirement ages at Air Canada (and all airlines.) The baby boomers are going to get the same thing they have received their entire lives - anything they want - including holding on to those airline jobs. Here's a report on the recent Air Canada decisions:

Canadian Human Rights Tribunal rules against mandatory retirement

In 2009 the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal (the “Tribunal”) released its most recent decision in Vilven v. Air Canada. The Tribunal ruled that mandatory retirement can not be justified as a reasonable limit on the equality rights guaranteed by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms (the “Charter”). The Tribunal also held that eliminating the employer’s mandatory retirement policy would not impose undue hardship on the employer and therefore mandatory retirement was not a bona fide occupational requirement (“BFOR”).

This was the Tribunal’s second decision about mandatory retirement at Air Canada. In its first decision, the Tribunal dismissed the human rights complaints brought by two former Air Canada pilots who were forced to retire at age 60. In that decision, the Tribunal found that 60 was the normal age for retirement for positions similar to those of the pilots. Therefore terminating their employment was not a discriminatory practice under s. 15(1)(c) of the Canadian Human Rights Act (the “CHRA”).

Section 15(1)(c) of the CHRA states:

15. (1) It is not a discriminatory practice if
(c) an individual’s employment is terminated because that individual has reached the normal age of retirement for employees working in positions similar to the position of that individual;

The complainant pilots applied to the Federal Court for judicial review of the Tribunal’s first decision. In April 2009, the Federal Court disagreed with the Tribunal. The Court ruled that s. 15(1)(c) of the CHRA violates the equality rights in s. 15(1) of the Charter because it denies the equal protection and equal benefit of the law to workers over the normal age of retirement for similar positions.

The Federal Court remitted the complaints back to the Tribunal to determine—in the Tribunal’s second decision last August—whether s. 15(1)(c) of the CHRA could be demonstrably justified as a reasonable limit in a free and democratic society within the meaning of s. 1 of the Charter.

[trey kule]

MattedFred, looks to me that your post pretty much hit the nail on the head....though before anyone gives you credit for an insightful analysis, I think they should know that your post appears to be taken from our company mission statement (insert smiley facie thingie

As to those who post that the boomers will eventially retire....hah!!! They will have to physically drag me and my seeing eye dog out of the cockpit before I will call it quits.
And I am not alone. flying is more than a job. It defines us as a person. My kids were always proud to tell people their dad was a pilot. Even if those people worked in the food bank or the welfare office, or were their dad's friends from his other job as head hamburger flipper.
(and where they provided the uniforms free of charge)

The simple fact is the big machinery is requiring less and less of the original pilot skills with each new generation of aircraft. And that means lower, not higher wages. The top few in the majors will always earn good wages..it is about putting the carrot out. The corporate folks will also tend to make better salaries because the people paying them also have to ride around with them...and because they wisely felt if they paid pilots more they would not have to deal with CRA with regard to adding the cost of peanuts eaten by the FO to their T4.

In the next one or two generations, I think pilots as we now think of them are going to be a vanishing breed, replaced by computer indoctrinated, peanut stealing, minimum wage drones.

[HighDreams]

In the next one or two generations, I think pilots as we now think of them are going to be a vanishing breed, replaced by computer indoctrinated, peanut stealing, minimum wage drones.

The U.S. Air Force has planes that are flown by a pilot on the ground. IMO I don't know if many paying passengers would fly without a pilot unboard. Some don't want to put their trust in a robot.

[trey kule]

I am going to be serious here for a moment, despite a continuing seasonal overindulgence in eggnog.

The RPV folks have had some very spectacular crashs (unpersoned...it is my attempt at political correctness). But the sense I have gotten,is that the progress is amazing.

Humans will always argue that they trust humans more , or will bring up the "what happens when the computer breaks" argument

First of all, I dont think you will see crews done away with entirely. But you may see one flight crew member in the aircraft, and one monitoring on the ground. It will be gradual, not radical, and will most likely start with transoceanic cargo only flights.

As to the argument of what happens when the computor breaks.. Here is the real questions
Do we really need two pilots on board if that possibility occurs, or will one and say one on the ground be enough? And, from a statistical standpoint, will the accidents resulting from a computer malfunction be more or less devastating in number and severity that those resulting from pilot error... It is abhorrent for some to face the realization that computers can fly a plane better than we can, but that is the reality, and it is the reality even today.. Companies spend an inordinate amount of money on crew training because the crews of some of the larger aircraft so seldom actually fly the plane..SOP's require auto land in bad weather, because it is safer than a live pilot, and in good weather so that the crew can see how it all goes and gain confidence...which means crew no touchie touchie controls.

Automation is here now. It is only a matter of time until it hits the commercial system.

[v6g]

Google "fedex+unmanned" for some interesting reading.

[Nark]

I sure hope not v6g. I use Fedex to travel on.

Down here their might be truth to a hiring spree brought on my age 65 retiree's, however calling a shortage is far from the truth.

[B-rad]

Wow!!! I just watched a CBC news program. According to aviation college teachers, if we don't pump more students through the schools, there is going to be a huge shortage of pilots world wide, including Canada. Oh my gosh, it's not that there aren't enough unemployed/underemployed pilots, it's that we have too many under employed instructors/colleges trying to justify their jobs. Funny, it was all about a shortage of air line pilots world wide. Maybe if they didn't charge huge PPC's and local nationality for Jars Canadians could fly world wide.

Media are such huge assholes. They take inaccurate information and try to sensationalize stories. If I didn't have thousands of hours to be lucky enough to fly floats, I could barely get a job as a rampy, with the chance to upgrade in 2 years to a 206.

I wonder how many wannabe pilots are going to see that news clip and get roped into joining the "DREAM"!!

Just watched it on the news! They sure try to put a good spin on it. Saying all our flight students are Asians and basically why aren't we keeping up! If they want the Government to help support the Pilot shortage then they should pay my medical and annual training!! I really hope too many people don't give up too much trying to follow that dream.

[Gino Under]

It goes without saying, as far as any pilot shortage goes, you can believe whatever you like.

The reality is that we are presently experiencing an industry pilot shortage. It's only going to get worse and some airlines will have to park assets as a result.

If your flying life revolves around inter-provincial or perhaps the odd venture south of the border, then I can see why you feel there is no pilot shortage. There are lots of pilots in Canada. There are lots who are out of work or at least, not flying. But that certainly doesn't mean our home industry isn't in trouble. It is.

I, like sandbagger757 above, have over 12,000 hours and several type ratings with time on type and all I do is get older as that drive and desire to fly slowly dies. Unfortunately, all (but for one) of my type ratings are now expired. How do I or others in a similar situation stay current when not employed or without an income? The reality of today's pilot employment is that nobody wants you unless you are type rated, current, with hours on type. The prospective employer will not type rate and will not get you current. The number of pilots here in Canada alone in a similar predicament must be staggering. Those employers who WILL type rate you and get you current are only interested in pilots under the age of (say) 35.
Surprised?
Not me.

Boeing and Airbus know the numbers and any industry pundit who disputes those numbers musn't spend a lot of time reading about this industry.
They know the traffic numbers, aircraft sales numbers both new and used. They know. Because their business depends on knowing those numbers and making those forecasts. They also know and fully appreciate the crewing numbers it's going to take to operate those aircraft.

This industry is FITH. (f**ked in the head)
For an industry that constantly shoots itself in the foot, like so many on these pilot forums, it believes there will always be an abundant supply of pilots at their beck and call, and it's an industry about to get a wake up call. The new ab initio numbers have steadily declined for more than 15 years all while those presently flying enjoyed their careers and approach retirement in the very near future. When those numbers collide, and they will, there's going to be huge repercussions and those repercussions will go beyond the airline industry.

Just ask yourself why a company like Emirates has an HR team circumnavigating the globe recruiting pilots? How many candidates from Canadian airlines will make the jump to Emirates?
Those who do will create openings and the 'musical chairs' begin all over again. Only this time, there will be fewer players.

If you want to be an airline pilot in Canada. My advise to you is to not waste your time or money. Get on with your life. However, if you want to be an airline pilot and don't care whether or not you have to leave Canada to do so, then go for it.

Gino Under

[LegoMan]

You haven't started flight training yet. It's not too late. Get out now before you lose years of your life and even more years of debt.

Omg I can't agree with this more. Get a business education, work a bit and in your late 20s start your own business. By the time you hit mid 30s or early 40s you could be rich. I started an export business, moving certain commodities the government asks me to in order to promote international business relations in Asia. I am turning 26 and let me tell you, the skies the limit, the money is pouring in (it's not easy but you decide your own fate). Most of the guys on here don't like to hear about guys in their 20s making quarter million a year but let them live in their own little world. Get rich, than buy your own airplane!

[sandbagger757]

I, like sandbagger757 above, have over 12,000 hours and several type ratings with time on type and all I do is get older as that drive and desire to fly slowly dies. Unfortunately, all (but for one) of my type ratings are now expired. How do I or others in a similar situation stay current when not employed or without an income? The reality of today's pilot employment is that nobody wants you unless you are type rated, current, with hours on type. The prospective employer will not type rate and will not get you current. The number of pilots here in Canada alone in a similar predicament must be staggering. Those employers who WILL type rate you and get you current are only interested in pilots under the age of (say) 35.

Nicely put Gino Under. Perhaps "westcoasting" will be in the very same predicament one day...50/50 chance.

[Gino Under]

sandbagger757

Our buddy, westcoasting, sounds like he's/she's still wet behind the ears. When this industry has kicked him/her in the crotch a few times, he/she will understand why the number of hours or type ratings you have means SFA to the idiots who run airlines.

I'm too old to give a sh*t now, but for those who think they have what it takes can let 'er rip.

I discouraged my kid as much as I could from becoming a pilot. Fortunately, he was paying attention as I sidestepped family life for a flying career and he could see how much it sucked and wanted no part of it. Which only proves how smart he is and how dumb I was.

I had a great career. I had the 'luck' it took to fly heavies. I had good times. I had bad times. I had my ups and downs and then came my reality check when the industry ensured the demise of my company and I found myself on the street wondering WTF happened. I enjoyed what I had while I had it. Not many regrets for the hours are logged in three log books. The type ratings are on my licence and that's good enough for me.

I wish you all the best partner.

Gino

[skat0r]

[dcabrown]

You haven't started flight training yet. It's not too late. Get out now before you lose years of your life and even more years of debt.

Omg I can't agree with this more. Get a business education, work a bit and in your late 20s start your own business. By the time you hit mid 30s or early 40s you could be rich. I started an export business, moving certain commodities the government asks me to in order to promote international business relations in Asia. I am turning 26 and let me tell you, the skies the limit, the money is pouring in (it's not easy but you decide your own fate). Most of the guys on here don't like to hear about guys in their 20s making quarter million a year but let them live in their own little world. Get rich, than buy your own airplane!

Don't do this.

Business is my day job and I can tell you there are literally tonnes of Commerce/MBA grads out of work. It USED to be that you could make it big in the business world. Not any more. The reality of the above statement, is that relative to how much you pay for undergrad/MBA school, you will work for years afterwards to pay off your student loan. There are maybe only a handful of highflying 6-figure jobs for late 20-somethings on Baystreet, fact.

If you're looking for $$$, Learn to weld or become an electrician. Move to Calgary. You'll earn at least twice what an MBA grad will earn ($50K these days IF you can find a job), and you will pay half as much for your education along the way...

[MrWings]

How do you get more young people in a cockpit?

Simple. Start them on coffee and cigarettes at birth.

You'd be able to cram lots of those stunted bastards into a cockpit.

[Justjohn]

MattedFred, looks to me that your post pretty much hit the nail on the head....though before anyone gives you credit for an insightful analysis, I think they should know that your post appears to be taken from our company mission statement (insert smiley facie thingie

As to those who post that the boomers will eventially retire....hah!!! They will have to physically drag me and my seeing eye dog out of the cockpit before I will call it quits.
And I am not alone. flying is more than a job. It defines us as a person. My kids were always proud to tell people their dad was a pilot. Even if those people worked in the food bank or the welfare office, or were their dad's friends from his other job as head hamburger flipper.
(and where they provided the uniforms free of charge)

The simple fact is the big machinery is requiring less and less of the original pilot skills with each new generation of aircraft. And that means lower, not higher wages. The top few in the majors will always earn good wages..it is about putting the carrot out. The corporate folks will also tend to make better salaries because the people paying them also have to ride around with them...and because they wisely felt if they paid pilots more they would not have to deal with CRA with regard to adding the cost of peanuts eaten by the FO to their T4.

In the next one or two generations, I think pilots as we now think of them are going to be a vanishing breed, replaced by computer indoctrinated, peanut stealing, minimum wage drones.

THIS is the TRUE TRUE !

The whole 'College of Pilots' underlying principle is about Gate Keeping .. Creating a smaller labour pool to force higher wages ... Because the job genuinely Does Not require more skill today than it did in past generations. In my opinion, much less so.

I hope it has some success 'cause I like $ money too. ...

However, I honestly believe that we are one of the last generations that will truly be able to consider this a Profession. The Walmart 'ization of the industry has already begun.

[teacher]

The CBC is at it again.........(Read the comments, lots of folks trying to set the record straight)

Looming pilot shortage feared
Last Updated: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 | 12:07 AM ET Comments95Recommend35CBC News


Capt. Domenic Di Iorio steers in a Boeing simulator. More simulators are being built to help airlines train pilots. (CBC)

The aviation industry may face a shortage of pilots, Boeing executives say.

Over the next two decades, the U.S. maker of commercial jetliners is projecting that there will be an estimated 30,000 more planes in the sky worldwide and that 466,650 pilots will be needed to fly them.

Capt. Domenic Di Iorio steers in a Boeing simulator. More simulators are being built to help airlines train pilots. (CBC)
In Canada and the United States alone — where baby boomer pilots are getting ready to retire — 97,350 new pilots will be required, the Chicago-based company said.

"If we wait to the last minute as an industry we will indeed face that shortage," said Roei Ganzarski, the chief customer officer for Boeing Training and Flight Services.

The shortage is already happening in some countries. Scroll down any airline job board and there are dozens of pilot positions advertised in Asia, including China, Korea and Vietnam, and in the Middle East.

The United Arab Emirates isn't waiting for pilots to apply. It came to Canada recently to recruit pilots from domestic airlines, offering big salaries and benefits. But the airline didn't allow CBC cameras inside to hear its pitch.

"What we don't want is for organizations to feel the need to fill that demand — to fill that shortage — by putting in maybe less competent, less proficient pilots," Ganzarski said.

Boeing is building more than a dozen flight simulators, with the majority of them heading overseas to China and the Middle East. All of them will help airlines train more pilots.

Industry officials said the simulator is an effective teaching tool, which helps fast-track new pilots without taking short cuts on safety.

"I think training programs are there to make sure we elevate and bring whatever skill level pilot that we encounter to that high benchmark or that high standard," said Jeff Roberts, group president of civil simulation products, training and services at CAE Inc.

But it has been difficult to recruit young people to become pilots. It takes up to five years to acquire the skills to fly commercially and many years after that before pilots can fly in the big leagues .

"It is difficult for the common person off the street to show up at a school and say 'I want to be a pilot for a career,'" said Capt. Domenic Di Iorio, CAE's instructor who tests pilots in Montreal. "It's very expensive."

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/12/ ... rtage.html