Winnipeg Free Press Article on Ray Hall

[Rockie]

Sleep well Dockjock. People are defending the rights you still don't realize you have.

[turbo-beaver]

The real loser here now will be ACPA seeing as Raymond has freed up a little time from his other commitments

Personally if I was still an active ACPA member I would be asking my Association to start thinking about suing the legal firms that have been giving them such lousy legal advice the past six or seven years. At least then, there would be some hope of recovering some of the costs associated with this lengthly litigation. ACPA has already increased the union dues to help recover some of the costs. What are they going up to when this is all over? And one must ask why, ACPA is the last union to jump on the bandwagon to start filing grievances and represent its members?

[Rockie]

I'm convinced ACPA's lawyers have been telling them the same the other union's legal team has. But for reasons they will never admit publicly or to the members they chose this disastrous course of action.

[turbo-beaver]

“Negligence is the omission to do something, which a reasonable man, guided upon those considerations, which ordinarily regulate the conduct of human affairs, would do, or doing something, which a prudent and reasonable man would not do. The standard demanded is thus not of perfection but of reasonableness. It is an objective standard taking no account of the defendant's incompetence - he may do the best he can and still be found negligent”

Who is negligent here.....the union, the lawyers advising the union....or both ?

[Rockie]

It is the union completely and the pilots who support them. You don't need a lawyer to see which way Canada is going with regards to mandatory retirement or the chances of maintaining an unsustainable status quo. The train wreck in progress was obvious to foresee by anybody with half a brain capable of looking at this with objectivity.

[turbo-beaver]

True.... but even more interesting, you don't see the literally hundreds of pages of acrimony and diatribe on the Westjet and Jazz websites.......nor the costly legal battle that the Air Canada pilots are embroiled in.....they just went with what was right and got down to business without spending a single cent on the issue.
Wonder why?
Even Sunwings, currently allowing pilots to fly as captains to age 65 are allowing their captains over 65 to now stay on as F/Os, while paying them their captain wages.....
Kinda makes one wonder who is really running ACPA....the grass roots union.....

[Rockie]

Only ACPA can explain the real reason they are continuing to fight this in the face of a blatantly obvious shift in societal standards and despite successive legal rulings against them. I suspect though that they will never admit the real reason.

[Inceptive]

Societal standards? This is why there is such a fight... Societal standards have not changed, only your fight to use the HRTC has changed. You are all quick to dismiss the comments within the Globe and Mail, along with those at ACPA, and write what has transpired as a shift in societal standards. You do not have near the numbers to support it. Many of the younger generation have contacted their MP's and started campaignes within various ridings in order to voice their discontent. Is this what happened to RH? I don't know, but when put in the public light of being the champion who fought for those who were only getting a $80k pension and their right to occupy jobs who the younger generation could easily fill, it's hard for those entering the work force to understand. You floated your cause publicly in the Globe and the Star, and it sank. If you feel there are enough to support YOUR view points, run for president at ACPA. Until then, do not call it a change within societal standards. Archaic PAY, pension, and retirement system that needs to be addressed, that I can buy.

[vic777]

Only ACPA can explain the real reason they are continuing to fight this in the face of a blatantly obvious shift in societal standards and despite successive legal rulings against them. I suspect though that they will never admit the real reason.

Follow the money. What is best for the ACPA Elite?

[Rockie]

Societal standards? This is why there is such a fight... Societal standards have not changed, only your fight to use the HRTC has changed.

It's the CHRT, not the HRTC.

If societal standards have not changed I guess that means every single province and territory has not banned mandatory retirement as discriminatory. I guess that means the federal government isn't one step away from doing the same thing with the unanimous support of every party in the house of commons. I guess that means the CHRT didn't rule in favour of the complainants. I guess that means the federal court didn't rule in favour of the complainants...twice.

Oh wait...those things did happen.

You were saying about societal changes....

[vic777]

Archaic PAY, pension, and retirement system that needs to be addressed, that I can buy.

What is best for the ACPA Elite? That is what we will get.

[Inceptive]

vic777, not vic320, or vicEMJ. You call ACPA as a whole "elite", yet you carry a title (777) which represents a minority position held within our peers, yet a majority within pay... Seems pretty elite to me.. As Rockie constantly points out (which we should listen to) if you dont like it, change it. Run for ACPA.. If your peers do not agree with your stand, they will let you know through democratic vote.. This doesn't mean your position is wrong, however it does illustrate the fact that it is not widely accepted among your peers.

[Lost in Saigon]

you carry a title (777) which represents a minority position held within our peers, yet a majority within pay... Seems pretty elite to me..

Maybe Vic is a new hire 777 RP making flat pay. Or he could be a 12-15 year 777 RP. Or maybe he is a 20-25 year 777 FO. Just because you fly a 777, it doesn't make you super senior, or "Elite".

[accumulous]

You do not have near the numbers to support it.

You are way, way, way, way, way, out of the picture. It only takes one(1) individual to support it.

Individual rights.

ACPA didn’t get it then, they don’t get it now, and they’re not ever going to get it. They bet the farm on individual rights counting for nothing. And they lost. That’s why the Feds have taken over complete control of it and they will dictate the outcome, in the form of verdicts, rulings, judgements, and orders, and in case you haven’t read the papers in the last couple of years, they already have.

Many of the younger generation have contacted their MP's and started campaignes within various ridings in order to voice their discontent. Is this what happened to RH? I don't know, but when put in the public light of being the champion who fought for those who were only getting a $80k pension and their right to occupy jobs who the younger generation could easily fill, it's hard for those entering the work force to understand.

Once again, let’s just dispense with the Charade, shall we?

Almost none of the AC pilots can make the pension stream on years of service at 60 because hiring age barriers were ruled by the courts as constituting Discrimination, over 30 years ago. That's 3 decades ago. That's 30 percent of a century. Look it up.

This little gig is precisely all about lopping off 700 senior pilots, sliding up the list just in time for the retirement age to be opened up.

Everybody knows that.

It’s common knowledge.

It’s a game of musical chairs.

ACPA already lost the game.

Send a million emails to every MP in the country.

It’s as transparent as a piece of Saran Wrap.

Everybody knows the demographics of the pension conundrum.

Everybody.

Nobody is being fooled by what is going on.

The rulings are in.

Group votes to the contrary count for precisely Jack Squat.

It’s over with.

[Morry Bund]

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breaki ... 26049.html

[MackTheKnife]

Finally some truth emerging.

" Hall cited personal reasons for his departure but Burt feels some Tories have mistreated Hall.

"I thought (Hall) was being treated unfairly," said Burt.

He said he was told to direct media calls to the national party office but said he didn't like the fact some have left the impression Hall didn't work hard enough and had no chance to win.

Burt said the riding has been deeply divided since Hall won the nomination and there have been clear attempts to undermine his candidacy.

"There were a lot of nasty emails."



One has to wonder how many of those "nasty emails" were from juvenile ACPA members in a concerted smear campaign? I wouldn't put anything past that immature group especially when they posted on another thread last year their intent to do exactly that.

[43S/172E]

From the same article in the Winnipeg Free Press:

Burt said he'd prefer a more neutral candidate be selected to unite the riding.

"We don't need another divisive candidate," he said. "I think (Neville) is beatable with the right candidate."

If the riding remains divided, Hall's numerous supporters and volunteers will stay home, Burt said.

Mallin said Wednesday neither he nor his supporters tried to undermine Hall's candidacy.

"That's a false accusation," said Mallin. "He and I don't particularly like each other but it's an agreement to disagree. Raymond was able to bury himself all on his own."Mallin also said it is wrong for anyone to believe the Conservatives in Winnipeg South Centre aren't going to be ready for an election, which could be called as early as next week.

"The riding association is not in disarray and is well-prepared to fight an election," he said.

[vic777]

One has to wonder how many of those "nasty emails" were from juvenile ACPA members in a concerted smear campaign? I wouldn't put anything past that immature group especially when they posted on another thread last year their intent to do exactly that.

It would certainly be consistent with ACPAs', "Shoot yourself in the foot", philosophy. Not to realize the benefits of having an Airline Pilot as a member of the Majority Government in the Country. The ACPA President may be right when he says, "AC Pilots are overpaid".

[Raymond Hall]

I do not wish to become engaged in any debate here. However, I do wish to state as a fact that I have absolutely no reason to believe or even suspect that any airline people whatsoever have ever attempted to make any contact with persons in the federal political regime affiliated with my previous political aspirations there, let alone that they might have attempted to discredit me in some manner. Not so. End of speculation.

[Inceptive]

"The ACPA President may be right when he says, "AC Pilots are overpaid".[/quote]

Please feel free to enlighten us with the complete context of this quote, for those of the younger generation who may read this, but are not at Air Canada as of yet..

[Inceptive]

"You are way, way, way, way, way, out of the picture. It only takes one(1) individual to support it."

Please re read my post.. I am not discussing the law here at all. I am solely discussing the use of the term "societal standards". As you have pointed out, it only takes one, and I agree. However "one" or 150 does not equate to a societal standard. It is based on law, as of which I am not a member of said society.

And if you believe that writting an MP or three within your riding is a waste of time.. Then I can point you towards Cuba, or Lybia as a place to take up residence.

Thousands told RH, that previous rulings rendered his fight irrelevant, and he proved them wrong!

Good thing he never listened to those such as yourself!

[Rockie]

When the ACPA president was testifying before the Commons Committee on mandatory retirement he explained the deferred compensation scheme by saying junior pilots were underpaid (very true) and senior pilots were overpaid (not true). In essense he said the junior pilots subsidized the extravagant salary of the senior pilots, and therefore mandatory retirement had to remain in order to get rid of the overpaid pilots sooner in order to give the junior guys their turn at the trough that much quicker.

Very, very strange thing for a pilot representative to say that made us and our pay scheme all look stupid. Which, at least as far as the pay scheme is concerned would be true.

[What About Me?]

With friends like the Strach, who needs enemies.

I'm still hoping against hope that I can get back to work ASAP, in the left seat, before I hit the big 65. Though 777 F/O can't be all bad.

Sorry for the thread creep.

[Inceptive]

"Very, very strange thing for a pilot representative to say that made us and our pay scheme all look stupid. Which, at least as far as the pay scheme is concerned would be true."

I partially agree. However, "their turn at the trough that much quicker" is not appropriate. Just as quick as those who received said benefits, of our pay "scheme" before us, would be more truthfull. We all know that the system has been stacked to allow individuals to maximize their last 5 years. This is compensated by those who are junior within said system. By laying the ground work of letters and mention of how this system treats its younger employees, it may assist in changing our pay disparity in the future.

[Brick Head]

When the ACPA president was testifying before the Commons Committee on mandatory retirement he explained the deferred compensation scheme by saying junior pilots were underpaid (very true) and senior pilots were overpaid (not true). In essense he said the junior pilots subsidized the extravagant salary of the senior pilots, and therefore mandatory retirement had to remain in order to get rid of the overpaid pilots sooner in order to give the junior guys their turn at the trough that much quicker.

Very, very strange thing for a pilot representative to say that made us and our pay scheme all look stupid. Which, at least as far as the pay scheme is concerned would be true.

Rockie,

Stop with the deliberate misrepresentation of the facts. By now you know full well what Paul was describing. A deferred compensation system. A historical labor fact that has benefited employees for decades. And Paul hit the nail on the head. The destructive nature of your hatred toward anything ACPA is astonishing.

Senior pilots are not over payed. They are receiving their pay plus the pay that was deferred when they were junior. Junior pilots are under paid. That lower income is deferred until a later date. They get it back.

No one. Repeat no one is subsidizing anyone else. The only way a junior pilot wouldn't get their deferred income would be as a result of individuals staying past the normal age of retirement, without passing on their position, as is their responsibility, in such a pay scheme.

All of this you should understand by now. It is not conjecture. it is not a theory. It is fact.

There is a simple truth within all the BS that thrives on this forum from individuals like you. A change away from the present system will mean everyone that follows will work longer, for the same pre and post retirement income. Everyone other than, of course, those who stand to capture the deferred income of their junior peers during the change.

Unless the CHRT and courts are in the business of legalized theft? Redistributing the intended destination of the collective wealth? You have an eye opening coming. You are slowly winning the right to work past 60. You are not winning the battle of how that plays out in the larger context of organized labor.