Buying a Cessna 150/152

[invertedattitude]

Wow!

Thanks for the post.

It just so happens that an aquaintance of mine from Texas (Captain on the 77F for FedEx) is selling his IFR rated 150.

Low time engine, and he's the type who goes overboard on maintenance (He bought the airplane for his girlfriend now wife to learn to fly IIRC)

Now, knowing him makes the cloud of uncertainty a little more clear, but of course I'm still going to follow all the usual precautions assuming we do buy it... the price is right as well.

I'm wondering you mentioned the COPA guide, I admit I'm not too familiar with anything COPA, but does this include how to transport a US Registered plane back to Canada? Anyone with experience doing this?

Looks like about a 1750NM trip, so it would be a 4 day affair assuming the weather is good the whole way.

[tyndall]

I'm wondering you mentioned the COPA guide, I admit I'm not too familiar with anything COPA, but does this include how to transport a US Registered plane back to Canada? Anyone with experience doing this?

Looks like about a 1750NM trip, so it would be a 4 day affair assuming the weather is good the whole way.

Three ways to get it to Canada.

1. Get an American to fly it up here on "vacation" and sell it to you while he is here.

2. Get a US pilot license based on your Canadian one (allow about six months for paperwork), then go down and fly it back.

3. Remove wings and put it on a trailer.

A Canadian licensed pilot cannot fly a US registered aircraft in the US.

[invertedattitude]

hmm...

That would likely throw a wrench into things then.

[Pavese]

I'm wondering you mentioned the COPA guide, I admit I'm not too familiar with anything COPA, but does this include how to transport a US Registered plane back to Canada? Anyone with experience doing this?

Looks like about a 1750NM trip, so it would be a 4 day affair assuming the weather is good the whole way.

Three ways to get it to Canada.

1. Get an American to fly it up here on "vacation" and sell it to you while he is here.

2. Get a US pilot license based on your Canadian one (allow about six months for paperwork), then go down and fly it back.

3. Remove wings and put it on a trailer.

A Canadian licensed pilot cannot fly a US registered aircraft in the US.

Four ways. Fourth is to change the reg to Canadian & fly it home, we did that.

You need to do the buy, get it de-registered in the US and registered in Canada on a temp C of A (IIRC). Put the CDN marks on, fly it here and get the CDN C of A inspection/importation done when you get here. Oh, and get your wallet lightened at the border for GST....and don't forget insurance.

There are finer details like how to get the right form to do the de-reg and re-reg etc., but those are (lol) details. You need the doc from the US confirming de-reg before Canada will register, that has to come from (Kansas?) and go to Ottawa via official channels. It's not too long a process either but getting good info can be a pain.

You can get a title search for cheap through AOPA too, I think it was they had access to the official FAA records. Might have been something about speeding the sale receipt too IIRC. Check their web site.

If you go there I can see about digging up more details. Like I said, COPA and EAA were helpful. I got a half hour with a US lawyer gratis via EAA, not a bad investment!

D

[robertsailor1]

The above info is generally correct except the deregistration is done in oklahoma city. for a small fee you can have a local look after getting it deregistered for you and when they do it happens in a few days. i've imported a couple of dozen aircraft over the years and its esay peasy once you understand it. just make damn sure all the aircrafts paper work is properly done, ie no 337 mods without stc's. reasonably current weight and balance and check it carefully for corrosion and you'll be good to go. have someone other than your friends ame give it a proper inspection, money well spent.

[higharctic]

Edit

[invertedattitude]

Hmm... you guys just re-opened my little VFR cross country from Fort Worth!


I would prefer to buy inside Canada just to save a bit of the hassle... but it's almost laughable what some people are asking for their 150's...

For example, almost the same year and TT, Canadian Reg has 1750SMOH for $24,000 American with 700SMOH for $15,000 equipment and kit almost identical

[Colonel Sanders]

Even the latest COPA paper clued in that aircraft in Canada
were over-priced and not selling, and not flying.

The right person should be able to help you with the import
for much less than the price delta.

The trick is choosing the right aircraft to import! Some are
a dream, some are a nightmare.

Hint: Any time you are looking at an airplane, spend the $10
and do an on-line 337 search at the FAA based on the N-number.

Any mysterious or major damage? Any major mods without
STC's? If so, walk away from the import nightmare.

Next step is a lien search. Is the title clear and ready for
de-registration? If not, can you find the bank from the
1960's that holds the lien?

Next step, just like a Canadian aircraft, is for YOUR AME
to do a complete annual on the aircraft as a pre-purchase
inspection. Look for corrosion and any undocumented
damage, repairs or mods, and AD compliance. Any snags,
re-negotiate the price.

The rest is pushing paper, and some decals for the C- marks.

This is not rocket science. You just need someone whom
has done it before, to help you through the process the first
time.

[Beefitarian]

After hanging out here and listening to Sanders too much it has sank in with me. If you live within a Couple of hours from the border I don't think I would import a plane.

Transport Canada really does seem to hate airplanes and certainly puts up many obsticles to prevent you from having fun just flying them around with a Canadian registration. Sure some of the hoops you must jump through are sort of good, like making it manditory to comply with ADs, 50 hour inspections for commercially registered planes in the past maybe, but you're not buying a Canadian plane that has been flown and maintained under those stricter standards.

The FAA has made it simple to convert your license, probably much easier than it would be to import the plane. Fly down south a couple times a year and go somewhere interesting, voila less expensive maintainence, fuel and probably insurance. Every time I have flown in the US&A I have had a great time. Controlers are nice, instructors are nice, AMEs are nice (even if some of them don't know what you're talking about when you ask if they can do a 50 hour inspection because you're on a long trip in a Canadian commercially registered C-172 in the 1990s.)

If you're on the East side of the country you can go to New York, Washington D.C. or some other interesting places that have beaches maybe Florida if you want to go a ways.
If you're on the West side you can go to California, Oregon or LasVegas.
If you're in the middle you can escape there for anywhere you feel like.

[robertsailor1]

Come on Beef, owning airplanes has nothing to do with common sense, is a purely emotional decision 95% of the time. If you have the disposal income then its either a boat or some other toy and for many of us its a plane. The reality is that its just plane fun and often ones social centre is the airport or hanger area. I have made it a point to never keep track of my costs, i don't want to know or maybe reality might set in and i'd drop the whole gig, lol. i

[Beefitarian]

If you've been reading more than a very small sample of my work here you'll note I lean away from bothering to post sensible things only to have many "experts" come along to shoot holes in such posts. Yes there's a few like yourself that actually continue to try and submit valuable content and I thank you for having the patience to continue that.

Since I don't have enough of that disposible income you mentioned, I'll have to go post about hedgehogs somewhere else due to the demise of the watercooler.

[MrWings]

I like this thread because I am rattling around the idea of buying a plane as well.

I agree with the overpriced aircraft market in Canada. I liken it to the housing market. Here, people expect their aircraft (house) to appreciate and are asking top dollar. In the States, the market correction has seen aircraft (house) prices drop and selling point is often below investment.

I also agree that renting is cheaper for me for the hours that I'd fly a year. But rental is hard to come by in my area. And reserving an aircraft for the dates desired is impossible. The only way to get what I want is to own. The heart backs me up on that. The head not so much.

There are a couple of nagging concerns:

1. What iwill be the availability of avgas in the next 5-10 years? After that, then what?
2. How desireable will a steam gauge aircraft be in 5-10 years? Everything is going digital.

[Beefitarian]

1. What will be the availability of avgas in the next 5-10 years? After that, then what?
2. How desireable will a steam gauge aircraft be in 5-10 years? Everything is going digital.

1. There will be some form of avgas, probably un-leaded. I don't even know if lead's the worst thing in the stuff but I agree it can't be great for us or the enviroment. Then again where does it come from? The uh, ground, right?

The bigger question for me will be, "How will we afford to buy the new stuff?"

2. To whom? There's a fair amount of guys here going NORDO. I think the guages that have been used for half a century are pretty good myself. Then again, I do like fancy stuff like radios, those spot GPS trackers and Mode-C so I can wander into cities or go across the center of Montana with a pretty good chance of someone coming to find me if I have to pull over with my single engine plane.

[robertsailor1]

the av gas is an interesting topic, most of the older engines designed for 80/87 do just fine on mogas but the higher compression engines want 100ll. i'm sure they'll solve it with additives or in some other way. as to steam guage instruments, that would be the last thing i would worry about. first of all you don't need the latest and greatest glass panel in a single engine aircraft for vfr flight. if you fly lots of instrument single engine then you are as stupid as i was 30 years ago, i don't do that any more for reasons i'd rather not discuss.

[invertedattitude]

The problem with all of this is, I haven't managed to convince the wife yet..


You think TC is hard to deal with...

[FenderManDan]

If you manage to convince your wife somehow, can you teach me ?

Mine was thinking I am just not serious and when I started calling around about the different planes the situation got really tense and still is....I'll let you know if I end up in a hospital with a head trauma from some kind of flying object.

How do we organize a critical mass or "get wife interested" club? Safety in numbers, you know.

Cheers,

Dan

[jump154]

How do we organize a critical mass or "get wife interested" club? Safety in numbers, you know.

Organising a large group of Men is usually counter-productive when trying to get one's wife interested in something. Organising a large group of Women is always counter-productive! We'll need to go underground here..... I'll let you know how I get on with my current "Let's go camping in Wisconsin in July for our Holidays this year" plan.

As for aircraft - 150/152 are out, she wants something with more room and more comfortable. I've also found out she prefers doors that close properly as well.

[FenderManDan]

How do we organize a critical mass or "get wife interested" club? Safety in numbers, you know.

Organising a large group of Men is usually counter-productive when trying to get one's wife interested in something. Organising a large group of Women is always counter-productive! We'll need to go underground here..... I'll let you know how I get on with my current "Let's go camping in Wisconsin in July for our Holidays this year" plan.

Yeah you are right about this.

As for aircraft - 150/152 are out, she wants something with more room and more comfortable. I've also found out she prefers doors that close properly as well.

You are in good shape man. I am still dealing with the "this is not safe" issue. Mr KFC is in my province I got to take a trip to visit him for some wisdom and tail wheel training, perhaps.
Colonel, if you are reading this, I am bringing a hard headed one for some mind changing talk. On the other hand maybe not, he will charge me $1000/hr after that experience.

[Beefitarian]

Careful Dan the colonel has solved that "Wife didn't like airplanes as much as I do." problem a few times. My understanding is it's even more expensive.

Maybe we need to build one of those communities with an airstrip and some kind of spa. Distract them with chocolate and bath products. "Happy wife happy life."?

[jump154]

Careful Dan the colonel has solved that "Wife didn't like airplanes as much as I do." problem a few times. My understanding is it's even more expensive.

+1 (sofar )

Maybe we need to build one of those communities with an airstrip and some kind of spa. Distract them with chocolate and bath products. "Happy wife happy life."?

Good thought - I found a trip to Edenvale including dinner at 'FUD' was very beneficial.

I do have one daughter who gets upset whenever I DON'T take her flying, some lucky fellow will owe me big time for that one day.

Hmmm, maybe we could buy that AN2 from the other thread and turn it into a flying SPA.....

[robertsailor1]

when i was in my very early 20's i sat down with my wife and projected what my aircraft rental costs would be. her response was don't fly so much, lol. i countered with if you don't fly x amount of hours your not going to be safe.( i still believe this ) so then i gave her some numbers on ownership. she didn't want to go into debt and neither did i so i set a budget and i put a big calander on the wall showing targeted savings compared to actual. man did we live cheap for a while but one day the money was there and i've never taken a loan to purchase an aircraft since. mind you we didn't have such low interest rates in those days. i owned my first aircraft, an aeronca L-3 at age 24 which i purchased in benton harbor mich and imported. i think most people overbuy when they get the urge to own and that really takes the fun out of it. you are so much better off owning something that is easy to afford and looks after your urge to fly. rent something larger when you need to. even today there are some super cheap aircraft that are nothing but fun to own and fly and won't break the bank. there is a social side to flying that most women really enjoy if you take the time to make sure it happens. and finally don't be a pussy about making your dreams come true, life is short.

[Shiny Side Up]

i think most people overbuy when they get the urge to own and that really takes the fun out of it. you are so much better off owning something that is easy to afford and looks after your urge to fly.

Probably some of the best advice that if more recreational flyers adhered to there would be a lot more flying going on in this country. There really should be more 150s, 152s, Champs, Chiefs, Cubs, Colts and Pacers flying around this country instead of the aircraft that spend their time parked because they are too expensive to run, waiting for that big trip that is going to make it worth owning. Most recreational flyers need a 2 seater to burn around the patch maybe with a friend for 95% of the flying they want to do, but unfortunately tell themselves they need a six seater or something that goes 200 knots for that big trip they have in mind that their wife is never going to go with them on.

[jump154]

i think most people overbuy when they get the urge to own and that really takes the fun out of it. you are so much better off owning something that is easy to afford and looks after your urge to fly.

Probably some of the best advice that if more recreational flyers adhered to there would be a lot more flying going on in this country. There really should be more 150s, 152s, Champs, Chiefs, Cubs, Colts and Pacers flying around this country instead of the aircraft that spend their time parked because they are too expensive to run, waiting for that big trip that is going to make it worth owning. Most recreational flyers need a 2 seater to burn around the patch maybe with a friend for 95% of the flying they want to do, but unfortunately tell themselves they need a six seater or something that goes 200 knots for that big trip they have in mind that their wife is never going to go with them on.

Very true. In the year and a half since I got my license, I have taken the full family (Wife and 2 girls) all on a flight a grand total of twice. Most flights are with 1 passenger, or solo. A 152 would have done nicely for the majority of these.

The flip side of 'rent when needed' is most flight schools recency requirements which at the very least add to the once per year rental cost by adding an hour or so of checkout. Not as easy as renting a minivan from Hertz!

But for me, I'll be renting for a good few years yet.

[rapid602]

I might be the cheapest guy on the planet. If you are just looking to build time and then sell your aircraft then look at a homebuilt. There is a two seater near my home for $12,000. I owned a homebuilt when I was building time and put 65 hours on it and then sold it. I now have an ATPL and looking for work again after an absence from aviation. You can fly the one for sale near my home for about 4 gals an hour if your looing for a VFR machine. If you are seriouly looking for and IFR machine then look for something that will be able to fly IFR like someone suggested earlier, a Beech or a Cheroke 180, and get your time but valuable time. However if the goal is to become a professional pilot, I would rent and get it done. Find someone with an aircraft, buy some block time off of him, get your time logged and walkaway from the plane and move on. Just a thought.
If you want some info on the plane for sale ( NOT MY AIRCRAFT, I just know the guy, I recommended the aircraft to a friend of mine then send me and email .... rapid602@hotmail.com and I will forward you the email I sent a buddy of mine. I have not flown it or even sat in it. Its a single and I like flying aircraft with 2 screws pulling it.

[Pavese]

You are in good shape man. I am still dealing with the "this is not safe" issue.

Well, let's see.... how about the argument that the aircraft in question is 30 years old and has enough flight time to have been in the air 8 hours for every working day for more than 3 years and still hasn't crashed? Same with all the rest along the flight line......

OK, maybe logic isn't the answer with the fairer sex but nonetheless it is real.

Me, it wasn't my idea, it's all her fault. I just came along for the ride

D