Behchoko Crash NWT??

[Donald]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/air ... -1.2848689

[esp803]

There is no such thing as transient torque that I am aware of

In the Caravan it's 2400'/lbs for 20 seconds (As opposed to maximum continuous which is 1865) . Pretty much means you can firewall it for 20 seconds WITHOUT maintenance, although not reporting it would be foolish.

[Meddler]

Ya, 2400 isn't even on the guage. I've often wondered how long one I these engines would last at "windshield power". Hopefully I'll never find out...

[CamAero]

.

[pdw]

This is one sad Caravan.

[CamAero]

Looks like the FO's windshield is broken ?

[pdw]

Chunks of snow ploughed up at high speed impact / into the windscreen as the nose-wheel collapsed ?

A significant bounce is possible where maximum power is maintained to touchdown with shallow descent angle but where the initial highest speed impact raises AOA while arresting the descent (where the gear applies the G force) in the same second. If high enough, the second (the rebound) impact is not likely to be as shallow ...

[Illya Kuryakin]

Company culture may be a little to "get 'er done Boys"? They've not had the best of luck with Caravans. Time to rethink the game plan? Caravans are one of the easiest planes out there. Should it be acceptable to ball up one a year? For whatever reasons?
Illya

[pdw]

Time to rethink the game plan?

Yes ?

Should it be acceptable to ball up one a year? For whatever reasons?

No!

[Illya Kuryakin]

So, Tindi has a pilot in bondage program. Also know as ramp rats for a time, getting to "learn" the business. By the time said ramp rat is "awarded" a seat in an airplane, he's (or yup, she) is pretty much at the mercy of the company "culture". If that includes (and it seems to here) get 'er done, boys, well it pretty much says it all. Also known as "ball up" two Caravans, in as many years.
Illya

[Cat Driver]

Remember we all pay the price for these accidents in higher insurance premiums.

These accidents cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.

[Donald]

Also known as "ball up" two Caravans, in as many years.
Illya

2 questions:

How many years previous did they not ball one up?

Does company culture at Tindi include drug use?

[Illya Kuryakin]

Also known as "ball up" two Caravans, in as many years.
Illya

2 questions:

How many years previous did they not ball one up?

Does company culture at Tindi include drug use?

Well, they've lost two in the past three years. Both weather related.
Illya

[Donald]

Is this the other crash you are referencing?

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repor ... 1w0151.asp

[Illya Kuryakin]

That was 2011. I stand corrected. That was more than two years ago. That makes it okay then. I guess.
Have at it.
Illya

[Donald]

I wasn't trying to be pedantic on the date of the crash, but I did wonder about the comment "is it acceptable to ball up one caravan a year?"

As far as I can tell, Tindi has been around for 26 years. In that time, of note, they have had 2 185 crashes, 1 -3T crash, and now 2 -208 crashes. I'm sure they've had other incidents, but those are the biggies.

Considering the amount of work, and the area/type of work, do you think this is an exceptionally high number?

(And yes, drug use was a factor in the first Van crash)

[Illya Kuryakin]

I wasn't trying to be pedantic on the date of the crash, but I did wonder about the comment "is it acceptable to ball up one caravan a year?"

As far as I can tell, Tindi has been around for 26 years. In that time, of note, they have had 2 185 crashes, 1 -3T crash, and now 2 -208 crashes. I'm sure they've had other incidents, but those are the biggies.

Considering the amount of work, and the area/type of work, do you think this is an exceptionally high number?

(And yes, drug use was a factor in the first Van crash)

I don't know if 5 crashes in 26 years is high. It's not exceptionally low though. The last two indicate to me, things have room for improvement though. There seems to be a tendency to push weather in these two.
Illya

[Inverted2]

I first read the article stating he was a hero for making a safe emergency landing on the lake but when I saw the photo above it now looks more like a crash to me.

[Frozenwhirlybird]

I first read the article stating he was a hero for making a safe emergency landing on the lake but when I saw the photo above it now looks more like a crash to me.

I heard it was successful until a rock took out the left main gear. Otherwise there may have been no or minimal damage.

[Meddler]

Anytime a caravan is forced down in the dark nowhere near a runway and nobody is hurt it counts as a success I would say.

[trey kule]

In the second world war, the British Expeditionary Force and the French Army, were completed routed by the Germans, and pushed back to a beach in total disray. For reasons only known to himself to this day, Hitler stopped the German army from totally anniliating the British.
A great effort was made to get them off the beaches, and back to England.

When they arrived, there was cheering in the streets about the great success of the operation to recover them.

Winston Churchill then spoke to the effect that one should not assign to this operation, the attrbutes of success...

History is quite interesting. Other companies and pilots were sitting on the ground that morning.
A pilot took off, got into icing and crashed. No one was hurt.
Lets recall Churchill's words and not attribute success to an accident because the outcome was the best it could be.

Everytime a plane falls from the sky covered in ice, it is not a success, regardless of the final outcome.

The Caravan is a great little plane. Unfortunately not always flown by the greatest pilots

[Illya Kuryakin]

Nicely put TK.
Illya

[Illya Kuryakin]

Anytime a caravan is forced down in the dark nowhere near a runway and nobody is hurt it counts as a success I would say.

Lucky? Perhaps.
Success? Not by a long margin.
Success would be enjoying another cup of coffee while some other poor fool tests the waters. That's also wisdom. A trait not seen too often in the "get it done" mentality, that is aviation in some parts.
Illya

[railroad]

I like your thoughts regarding the outcome Trey. This flight should not be described as a success.

However, I believe the pilot did an outstanding job of staying calm and professional. I think there is little to debate about his handling of the situation. There is much to debate regarding the events leading up to the incident. But as we debate this, it would help to stick to facts.

"Other companies and pilots were sitting on the ground that morning" ?? Please elaborate. If other companies or pilots had information regarding the icing that morning, that was so conclusive to park airplanes, it would be nice to share their sources. (I am not asking about the GFA or experience based knowledge, I am inquiring about the actual source of the information that was conclusive enough to have companies parking airplanes.)

[pdw]

"Other companies and pilots were sitting on the ground that morning" ?? Please elaborate. If other companies or pilots had information regarding the icing that morning, that was so conclusive to park airplanes, it would be nice to share their sources. (I am not asking about the GFA or experience based knowledge, I am inquiring about the actual source of the information that was conclusive enough to have companies parking airplanes.)

That's the right line of questioning. I was checking WX data after-the-fact and noticed -11C at the surface at lift-off, which has to be at minimum 5 degrees colder up at the 5-8000 altitude ... and is forced down 20 minutes later, what gives ? How's that possible ?