Latest MEC Bulletin

[swervin]

Any opinions on the latest ACPA and ALPA MEC memo's that came out today?

[Sharklasers]

Collaboration is good as long as the ACPA reps don’t forget which pilot group they work for now.

[rudder]

Collaboration is good as long as the ACPA reps don’t forget which pilot group they work for now.

There is a multilateral solution to be reached if each of the (4) groups is willing to go there.

The employer(s) need to acknowledge that there will be a pay reset.

JAZ MEC need to accept that Jazz is going to get smaller sooner than planned, irrespective of the CPA.

ACPA MEC need to acknowledge that deferred employment (with a seniority number) needs to be part of Jazz flow (as it was in PML 1.0)

Hopefully the meeting that has already happened was cordial but also direct. Status quo is not sustainable nor is in the best interest of the parties. Acknowledge that fact and then move forward. Whipsaw worked when there was a surplus of qualified pilots to harvest. That is no longer the case.

[ZBBYLW]

There should be absolutely zero deferred seniority dates reserved for anyone not on property. Come on property and get a seniority number as simple as that.

[rudder]

Here is what Jazz is up against:

viewtopic.php?t=181783

Continue to pay less than the other E-jet operator and watch the exodus continue.

p.s. and now Porter has a higher staring CA pay (smaller aircraft) than Flair, Sunwing, Swoop, Lynx, Morningstar, and Cargojet (I believe).

[rudder]

There should be absolutely zero deferred seniority dates reserved for anyone not on property. Come on property and get a seniority number as simple as that.

You mean other than the 2 or 3 times over the past 25 years when that was not the case?

[Aviationanalysis234]

I believe the new Porter pilot scale is now also higher than WJ

[Aviationanalysis234]

I believe this pay is now also higher than WJ

[Outlaw58]

There should be absolutely zero deferred seniority dates reserved for anyone not on property. Come on property and get a seniority number as simple as that.

If you are already on property, this doesn't affect you. If you are at Jazz waiting to go to Air Canada, this works on your favor.

Therefore this sentiment can only come from someone that is neither at Jazz, nor at AC thus has no say in this discussion.

Your opinion will be considered accordingly.

58

[iflygirl_92]

There should be absolutely zero deferred seniority dates reserved for anyone not on property. Come on property and get a seniority number as simple as that.

and this attitude is WHY we are in this situation guys can't see the beyond their own personal benefits.

PILOTS ARE IDOITS!!!!

[iflygirl_92]

There should be absolutely zero deferred seniority dates reserved for anyone not on property. Come on property and get a seniority number as simple as that.

and this attitude is WHY we are in this situation guys can't see the beyond their own personal benefits.

PILOTS ARE IDIOTS!!!!

[flyingcanuck]

There should be absolutely zero deferred seniority dates reserved for anyone not on property. Come on property and get a seniority number as simple as that.

If you are already on property, this doesn't affect you. If you are at Jazz waiting to go to Air Canada, this works on your favor.

Therefore this sentiment can only come from someone that is neither at Jazz, nor at AC thus has no say in this discussion.

Your opinion will be considered accordingly.

58

Burn.

Agreed, crabs in the bucket mentality. "I had to start from the bottom so you should too".

[Cavalier44]

Outlaw58 and flyingcanuck, you are exhibiting a very typical Jazz pilot mentality - "if you're already on the property at Air Canada, this doesn't affect you" - without considering all of the factors at play.

In case you haven't been following, deferred seniority dates cannot be implemented at AC without the consent of ACPA, i.e., the Air Canada pilot group.

The last time the company tried to implement deferred seniority dates, they packaged it with a host of other concessions in an LOA that would have further eroded our working conditions. This LOA was soundly rejected by the pilot group.

Ask yourself, why should Air Canada pilots take concessions in order to give Jazz pilots deferred seniority dates? A further question - if you want to come work at AC, is deferred seniority worth it to come to a company where the pilot group has made concessions in order to allow that to happen? Concessions that will negatively impact your working conditions for the remainder of your career? I don't think anyone is objecting to deferred seniority on principal alone, because as you say, it doesn't affect those who are on property already one way or another. But the company should act in good faith and incentivize the pilot group to vote in favour of a new LOA that includes deferred seniority for Jazz pilots.

As the old adage goes, "show us the money". Stop trying to sneak concessionary language into every proposal that goes out to the pilot group and actually give us something without asking for anything in return - only then will we see deferred seniority being implemented. Air Canada pilots are in the process of defining a new relationship between themselves in the company that does not simply result in the pilot group voting "yes" to every half-baked proposal that goes out with a few extra dollars attached, but packaged with concessionary language that does much more harm than good to the contract in the long run.

[cdnavater]

Outlaw58 and flyingcanuck, you are exhibiting a very typical Jazz pilot mentality - "if you're already on the property at Air Canada, this doesn't affect you" - without considering all of the factors at play.

In case you haven't been following, deferred seniority dates cannot be implemented at AC without the consent of ACPA, i.e., the Air Canada pilot group.

The last time the company tried to implement deferred seniority dates, they packaged it with a host of other concessions in an LOA that would have further eroded our working conditions. This LOA was soundly rejected by the pilot group.

Ask yourself, why should Air Canada pilots take concessions in order to give Jazz pilots deferred seniority dates? A further question - if you want to come work at AC, is deferred seniority worth it to come to a company where the pilot group has made concessions in order to allow that to happen? Concessions that will negatively impact your working conditions for the remainder of your career? I don't think anyone is objecting to deferred seniority on principal alone, because as you say, it doesn't affect those who are on property already one way or another. But the company should act in good faith and incentivize the pilot group to vote in favour of a new LOA that includes deferred seniority for Jazz pilots.

As the old adage goes, "show us the money". Stop trying to sneak concessionary language into every proposal that goes out to the pilot group and actually give us something without asking for anything in return - only then will we see deferred seniority being implemented. Air Canada pilots are in the process of defining a new relationship between themselves in the company that does not simply result in the pilot group voting "yes" to every half-baked proposal that goes out with a few extra dollars attached, but packaged with concessionary language that does much more harm than good to the contract in the long run.

I think you missed Rudder’s initial point, this is in relation to the four party meeting that took place recently and in his mind some parts that should be included in any agreement put forward.
Nobody suggested anything come for free but ZBBYLW, essentially says under no circumstance should anyone not on property get a deferred number. No other way to interpret that!
The email we received from our MEC says a pilot wage reset is needed based on how far we are from our US counterparts, in my mind a deferred number will benefit the AC pilots more than Jazz pilots, by that I mean you will likely get a bigger slice of the increase pie. The deferred number will no doubt be more enticing to Jazz(junior) pilots. Doesn’t mean shit to me, nor do I want an AC number, I want more money now so hopefully I can still retire at 60, but at the current rate 63 is more likely and 65 is still possible. That depresses me, of course if I don’t move to a more expensive province like my wife wants to, I could still do 60, but that’s a me problem.

[Canpilot7]

How much of the current AC union representation is from jazz? I've got no dog in the fight, but if I was in their shoes I'd be worried if my union wasn't getting absolutely maximum value out of the seniority numbers (which obviously carries a lot of value). If it's a matter of showing some unity more than anything else (and still expecting massive compensation for anyone doing anything involving seniority lists) it's probably a good thing. Helping out friends at an old employer though would obviously be bad and isn't out of the realm of possibility

[Cavalier44]

I think you missed Rudder’s initial point, this is in relation to the four party meeting that took place recently and in his mind some parts that should be included in any agreement put forward.
Nobody suggested anything come for free but ZBBYLW, essentially says under no circumstance should anyone not on property get a deferred number. No other way to interpret that!
The email we received from our MEC says a pilot wage reset is needed based on how far we are from our US counterparts, in my mind a deferred number will benefit the AC pilots more than Jazz pilots, by that I mean you will likely get a bigger slice of the increase pie. The deferred number will no doubt be more enticing to Jazz(junior) pilots. Doesn’t mean shit to me, nor do I want an AC number, I want more money now so hopefully I can still retire at 60, but at the current rate 63 is more likely and 65 is still possible. That depresses me, of course if I don’t move to a more expensive province like my wife wants to, I could still do 60, but that’s a me problem.

Not at all, I read Rudder's comment and I tend to agree with most of what he's saying.

However, I take issue with the following statement: "ACPA MEC need to acknowledge that deferred employment (with a seniority number) needs to be part of Jazz flow (as it was in PML 1.0)".

What ACPA needs to do is represent the wishes and requirements of the Air Canada pilot group. If they believe that they will able to secure a better deal for Air Canada pilots in the form of a revised LOU, and part of that deal includes giving deferred seniority to the Jazz pilot group, then so be it. However, ACPA doesn't need to do anything vis-a-vis the Jazz pilot group - it's not their duty to represent them. It is the job of the respective companies (Air Canada and Jazz) to ensure their airlines are able to be staffed at the required level, not the job of the respective unions.

As far as "no deferred seniority for anyone under any circumstance", I think that's an extreme viewpoint that very few people share in reality. If the four parties are able to come together and propose a deal that is a net benefit to AC pilots, free of concessions, then there is no reason why it shouldn't pass. However, there are many people who are disillusioned by the company's constant attempts to ram through concessionary language any time they have the opportunity to do so; thus, the lack of enthusiasm for any deal that appears to favour Jazz pilots while leaving AC pilots at the wayside is more than understandable.

[cdnavater]

How much of the current AC union representation is from jazz? I've got no dog in the fight, but if I was in their shoes I'd be worried if my union wasn't getting absolutely maximum value out of the seniority numbers (which obviously carries a lot of value). If it's a matter of showing some unity more than anything else (and still expecting massive compensation for anyone doing anything involving seniority lists) it's probably a good thing. Helping out friends at an old employer though would obviously be bad and isn't out of the realm of possibility

I don’t see the latter happening, they already turned down a shit sandwich that included deferred seniority to Jazz pilots, anything with concessions is a nonstarter at either company.
If Jazz doesn’t do something NOW!, they will likely be parking the 175s very soon, any trainer on the E175 with less than 8 years in, ie; post 2015, is likely looking or already in the process for Porter. Same for the line pilots.

[cdnavater]

I think you missed Rudder’s initial point, this is in relation to the four party meeting that took place recently and in his mind some parts that should be included in any agreement put forward.
Nobody suggested anything come for free but ZBBYLW, essentially says under no circumstance should anyone not on property get a deferred number. No other way to interpret that!
The email we received from our MEC says a pilot wage reset is needed based on how far we are from our US counterparts, in my mind a deferred number will benefit the AC pilots more than Jazz pilots, by that I mean you will likely get a bigger slice of the increase pie. The deferred number will no doubt be more enticing to Jazz(junior) pilots. Doesn’t mean shit to me, nor do I want an AC number, I want more money now so hopefully I can still retire at 60, but at the current rate 63 is more likely and 65 is still possible. That depresses me, of course if I don’t move to a more expensive province like my wife wants to, I could still do 60, but that’s a me problem.

Not at all, I read Rudder's comment and I tend to agree with most of what he's saying.

However, I take issue with the following statement: "ACPA MEC need to acknowledge that deferred employment (with a seniority number) needs to be part of Jazz flow (as it was in PML 1.0)".

What ACPA needs to do is represent the wishes and requirements of the Air Canada pilot group. If they believe that they will able to secure a better deal for Air Canada pilots in the form of a revised LOU, and part of that deal includes giving deferred seniority to the Jazz pilot group, then so be it. However, ACPA doesn't need to do anything vis-a-vis the Jazz pilot group - it's not their duty to represent them. It is the job of the respective companies (Air Canada and Jazz) to ensure their airlines are able to be staffed at the required level, not the job of the respective unions.

As far as "no deferred seniority for anyone under any circumstance", I think that's an extreme viewpoint that very few people share in reality. If the four parties are able to come together and propose a deal that is a net benefit to AC pilots, free of concessions, then there is no reason why it shouldn't pass. However, there are many people who are disillusioned by the company's constant attempts to ram through concessionary language any time they have the opportunity to do so; thus, the lack of enthusiasm for any deal that appears to favour Jazz pilots while leaving AC pilots at the wayside is more than understandable.

Agreed! I don’t believe that was Rudder’s intent, just poorly phrased, he has a pretty good grasp of the inner workings at both companies. He can obviously speak for himself, so I’ll just leave it at that.

[JoeyBarton]

One of the biggest threat to Jazz, and in turn AC, is if Porter opens up a YUL base. A few ex sky YUL 175 drivers made the switch, but were all east costers with no particular ties to the QC province, the Qcers all stayed. Now if Porter opens up a YUL base now all the YUL base 175 skippers will apply to double their salary. The 175 operation would implode, left with no trainers or checkers... The ex CP of the 175 is now the CP for the E2 ops. Jazz and AC should be aware of that big threat. And the only way to resolve that would be a big money increase, now!
Baffles me that in Fev 2023, nothing yet is done to prevent a summer metldown...
May is around the corner...
Something needs to be done now!

[bradleyscotts]

Collaboration is good as long as the ACPA reps don’t forget which pilot group they work for now.

ACPA MEC need to acknowledge that deferred employment (with a seniority number) needs to be part of Jazz flow (as it was in PML 1.0)

It is not the job of the ACPA MEC to help AC and Jazz mgmnt attract pilots to Jazz. The overall compensation as well as the scheduling rules is what Jazz and AC mgmnt need to improve if they want to crew their airplanes.

Perhaps one of the worst, if not the worst, thing ALPA has done in Canada is agree to a flow agreement for their pilots to AC. It has been used to put downward pressure on wages not only at Jazz but throughout the whole industry. Wanna a job at AC? well your hours and experience don't matter, we are hiring 80% of our pilots from Jazz. Already have thousands of hours flying jets? don't matter, you have to compete with thousands of applicants that form the 20% OTS.Come to Jazz take a 50% paycut and you pretty much have a guaranteed job at AC with a 90% success rate.

The flow agreement should be treated like the travel benefits we all get. Nice to have if you want to to travel but not part of the compensation.

[Fanblade]

Collaboration is good as long as the ACPA reps don’t forget which pilot group they work for now.

There is a multilateral solution to be reached if each of the (4) groups is willing to go there.

The employer(s) need to acknowledge that there will be a pay reset.

JAZ MEC need to accept that Jazz is going to get smaller sooner than planned, irrespective of the CPA.

ACPA MEC need to acknowledge that deferred employment (with a seniority number) needs to be part of Jazz flow (as it was in PML 1.0)

Hopefully the meeting that has already happened was cordial but also direct. Status quo is not sustainable nor is in the best interest of the parties. Acknowledge that fact and then move forward. Whipsaw worked when there was a surplus of qualified pilots to harvest. That is no longer the case.

I agree with you including the PML.

But you can see it's a hot button issue over here that has created division. Like a two year YOS addon in 1995. Pilots junior on a higher pay scale. Or pilots pissed because they are stuck on reserve longer because delayed pilots keep dropping in on top of them.

So it is sensitive.

These issues abound because ALL parties didn't take part in the creation of the PML. In 1995 it was ACPA and AC negotiating only. The most recent PML ACPA wanted to stay out because of the backlash from 1995. It was expected that ALPA Jazz would negotiate their terms. Unfortunately that didn't happen and it was just a deal offered by AC.

The lesson? All four parties at the table to figure it out properly.

Not addressed to Rudder,

Next issue. Concessions? I know that is what old ACPA just brought us. But they couldn't see leverage if you rammed it down their throat. We have spent a lot of energy over the last few years wrestling our union back. Remember. Old ACPA pre latest MOA is not NEW ACPA. New ACPA hopes to be ALPA this year.

But concessions. No quite the contrary. Any agreement the ACPA and ALPA pilots give AC, to meet its operational needs MUST/SHALL come with substantial all around WACON increases for everyone.

Giving it for free. Stupid. Deleveraging yourself for nothing in return. Stupid.

[Fanblade]

Collaboration is good as long as the ACPA reps don’t forget which pilot group they work for now.

True but I don’t think that has been our issue. The issue is that multiple times over the years we have traded sewering Jazz in exchange for something in return. Scope changes for the most part. This has been a pressure point because we agreed to cost neutral bargaining. Everything we get has to be traded for something of equal value. Trading away cost savings at Jazz became a viable and preferred solution. Why not? That way ACPA doesn’t pay for the increase. Someone else we don’t represent does. We have simply been offloading cost neutral bargaining on to Jazz. We were about to do the same with the latest MOU.

This doesn’t work in the long term. It will simply restart a race to the bottom. A large part of how we found ourselves here.

Cost neutral bargaining had its burial last fall.

Anyone reading this from Jazz. Yeah it sounds bad. It was bad.

We have been down this road. Backing the regional pilots into corner is dangerous. They will start to fight for survival further increasing the race to the bottom. We are currently at a crossroads where the average Jazz pilot may start to feel backed into a corner. AC will take advantage if allowed.

What we need is a Jazz pilot to think this way. Thinking that they do not want to impact their future by coming at mainline pilots. For that to happen Jazz pilots need to see a future.

We wouldn’t be doing this for the Jazz pilots. We would actually be doing it for ourselves.

[Fanblade]

Both groups made the Risk Factors section within the Year end management discussion and analysis. In case you thought they weren’t paying attention.

Regional carrier service -The failure by Air Canada’s regional carrier to fulfill its obligations to Air Canada could have a material adverse effect on Air Canada, its business, results from operations and financial condition Air Canada enhances its network through a capacity purchase agreement with Jazz that operates flights on behalf of Air Canada. Pursuant to the terms of the Jazz CPA, Air Canada pays Jazz a number of fees, some of which are fixed and others that are determined based upon certain costs incurred by Jazz. Air Canada also reimburses Jazz for certain pass­through costs incurred by Jazz (or arranges to provide the related supplies to Jazz), such as fuel costs, navigation fees, landing fees and terminal fees. In addition, the Jazz CPA requires that Jazz maintain a minimum fleet size and contains a minimum average daily utilization guarantee, which requires Air Canada to use Jazz for that amount of flying. Significant increases in Jazz’s costs, the failure by Jazz to adequately fulfill its obligations under the Jazz CPA, factors that may reduce the utilization of the Jazz fleet, including economic or market downturns or the effects of the COVID-19 pandemic, and unexpected interruptions or cessation of Jazz’s services, as well as similar circumstances relating to other airlines from whom Air Canada may source regional capacity, could have a material adverse effect on Air Canada, its business, results from operations and financial condition.

Mainline- Labour costs constitute one of Air Canada’s largest operating cost items. There can be no assurance that Air Canada will be able to maintain such costs at levels that do not negatively affect its business, results from operations and financial condition. Most of Air Canada’s employees are unionized. While Air Canada had established long-term arrangements with unions representing a significant portion of its unionized employees, these agreements are scheduled to reach the end of their term over the next few years. Further, due to the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic, Air Canada is not expected to meet a wide body benchmark under the long-term arrangement it concluded in 2014 with the Air Canada Pilots Association, which may result in ACPA and Air Canada engaging in collective bargaining as early as mid-2023. Any future agreements or outcomes of negotiations or arbitrations, including in relation to wages or other labour costs or work rules, may result in increased labour costs

[rudder]

Both groups made the Risk Factors section within the Year end management discussion and analysis. In case you thought they weren’t paying attention.

Regional carrier service -The failure by Air Canada’s regional carrier to fulfill its obligations to Air Canada could have a material adverse effect on Air Canada, its business, results from operations and financial condition Air Canada enhances its network through a capacity purchase agreement with Jazz that operates flights on behalf of Air Canada. Pursuant to the terms of the Jazz CPA, Air Canada pays Jazz a number of fees, some of which are fixed and others that are determined based upon certain costs incurred by Jazz. Air Canada also reimburses Jazz for certain pass­through costs incurred by Jazz (or arranges to provide the related supplies to Jazz), such as fuel costs, navigation fees, landing fees and terminal fees. In addition, the Jazz CPA requires that Jazz maintain a minimum fleet size and contains a minimum average daily utilization guarantee, which requires Air Canada to use Jazz for that amount of flying. Significant increases in Jazz’s costs, the failure by Jazz to adequately fulfill its obligations under the Jazz CPA, factors that may reduce the utilization of the Jazz fleet, including economic or market downturns or the effects of the COVID-19 pandemic, and unexpected interruptions or cessation of Jazz’s services, as well as similar circumstances relating to other airlines from whom Air Canada may source regional capacity, could have a material adverse effect on Air Canada, its business, results from operations and financial condition.

Mainline- Labour costs constitute one of Air Canada’s largest operating cost items. There can be no assurance that Air Canada will be able to maintain such costs at levels that do not negatively affect its business, results from operations and financial condition. Most of Air Canada’s employees are unionized. While Air Canada had established long-term arrangements with unions representing a significant portion of its unionized employees, these agreements are scheduled to reach the end of their term over the next few years. Further, due to the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic, Air Canada is not expected to meet a wide body benchmark under the long-term arrangement it concluded in 2014 with the Air Canada Pilots Association, which may result in ACPA and Air Canada engaging in collective bargaining as early as mid-2023. Any future agreements or outcomes of negotiations or arbitrations, including in relation to wages or other labour costs or work rules, may result in increased labour costs

Pretty well sums things up, doesn’t it?

Status quo is untenable. Time for the 4 parties to figure it out.

Aviation has changed because there is a dramatic shortage of qualified pilots. Having first crack at keeping ANY experienced pilot is cheaper than soliciting a new one.

The answer is there. It is just the blanks that need to be filled in. Get on with it.

[rudder]

The employer(s) need to acknowledge that there will be a pay reset.

JAZ MEC need to accept that Jazz is going to get smaller sooner than planned, irrespective of the CPA.

ACPA MEC need to acknowledge that deferred employment (with a seniority number) needs to be part of Jazz flow (as it was in PML 1.0)

For greater clarity, I meant ALL of the above.

Everybody sees a new pay scale. Jazz gets right-sized for market, fleet, and ability to staff. Flow is restructured to be an effective tool in meeting staffing needs at both carriers.

Add to this other local concerns (ACPA has quite a few on items that will sunset next year).